Paul Batz: Building a Culture of Healthy Accountability

0:03 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling Podcast. I'm Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute, and with me is Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems. The great coach John Wooden said, true leaders accept responsibility for the outcomes of their decisions and actions. And leadership expert John Maxwell stated that a leader who doesn't take accountability for their actions is like a ship without a captain.

0:27 While we know that accountability is important, we don't always know how to make it the cultural norm in our organizations. So take some personal responsibility to listen. As Scott and I welcome best-selling author and leadership coach Paul Botts to discuss building a culture of healthy accountability on episode 633 of the Winning and Selling Podcast. Well Bill, I'm really excited to get into the conversation with Paul.

1:00 I've been a big fan and a big follower of what he does, and I'm anxious to hear him talk about accountability. But just a reminder, we've started a new book. And next week, we're going to talk about chapters 1 and 2, and the book is New Sales Simplified by Mike Weinberg. So you have about a week to go out and pick it up. We'll cover chapters 1 and 2, and I think our listeners are going to be very pleased with the content.

1:22 We've already heard from some of our clients that we've recommended the book to, and they've given us some great feedback as to how applicable it is and how it really overlaps with our philosophy bill. So we'll cover that next week, chapters 1 and 2. Let's get another perspective on selling by listening to the sales tip from Anthony. Enjoy and learn from the sales tip from Anthony by Anthony Enorino, a highly respected international speaker, best-selling author, entrepreneur, and sales leader.

1:50 Hey, it's Anthony Enorino. I want to talk to you about how to avoid being treated as a commodity and B2B sales. I'm going to give you four things to think about that will cause you to be treated as a commodity, not just your solution but you yourself. If you start with the legacy approach and you start with a history lesson on your company, followed by how great your clients are, and then ending on your solution, you're putting people to sleep. You don't need to do that anymore.

2:20 It's a very old structure and it's not necessary. Everybody's got the internet. They can see this on the website. If you believe that you're not a commodity, then I'm almost certain that you're a commodity. So here's the thing. If you believe that your competitors don't have a good company and they don't have the same solution that you have and there's no way that they could beat you, then I promise you that you're a commodity.

2:44 You do not want to believe this. I will tell you, the best thing that can ever happen to you as a salesperson is selling a commodity because you have no differentiation. So everything goes to the sales conversation. That will make you a much better salesperson. So don't worry about that. If you treat the sale as if it's a transaction, where all you're trying to do is ask a question about their problem, find the pain point, and then insert the solution, you're a commodity. For sure. There's no way around it.

3:13 That's what you are. If you have a poor sales conversation, you are projecting that you are fungible. And fungible means I could remove you and put somebody else in that same spot, and I couldn't tell the difference. So you need to have a better sales conversation. That's one of the most important things for you to do. Now, let me tell you some key tactics to be seen as an asset. So these are the better part of this time conversation we're having.

3:42 Start with an executive briefing. If you start teaching the client the Y change and you're giving them information and you're showing them data, you are creating value in the first three minutes of the sales conversation. And it will make it very easy for your client to give you a second meeting because they already know that you know how to create value. See me at thesalesblog.com or come out and say hello at LinkedIn. See you soon.

4:11 Again, I really love how his content overlaps with our philosophy bill. And we're grateful to have him be a supporter of the show and sending it out to his network. Thanks, Anthony. Paul bots is the founder and CEO of Good Leadership with a focus on organizational effectiveness. Paul leads a team who works with leaders to create operational assurance, a culture of accountability, where the teams across the organization deliver the promises in the operating plant.

4:38 So senior executives stay focused on making competitive moves to shape the market and attract the best talent. What makes Good Leadership special is their commitment to spread the idea goodness pays. A prolific author, Paul started Good Leadership Press in 2017, a publishing label which produces positive books and tools to help good leaders create great results in their personal and professional lives. Paul is the author of six books published by Good Leadership Press.

5:06 Paul, welcome to the winning and selling podcast. Yeah, thank you. This is really, really fun. A big part of my career has been in business development and I believe good leaders are constantly enrolling people in a strong vision and that's selling. So I love it. Yeah. Well, we certainly do focus on sales leadership here. And probably one of the biggest challenges they have is holding people accountable. They want to just work with the metrics and hold people accountable to numbers, but they don't always want to go out and then lead them and teach them and show them what they mean when they say this is what you need to do.

5:45 So we can get caught behind our computers being too metric oriented. So it's kind of a balance there. But before we get too deep into accountability, let's find out a little bit about you, Paul. What's your background? How did you determine you wanted to specialize in leadership? I've been in professional services my whole career on the front end of the equation where you acquire new clients and good professional services firms are deciding whether or not they want to work with people who want to hire you.

6:15 So it's a, it's a mutual process and it didn't take me very long to figure out there were certain types of organizations that were aligned and committed and accountable to their vision and their idea and others that weren't. So whether it was in public relations and advertising or in the organizational industrial psychology world. It, if people weren't aligned committed and accountable to what they were trying to do, no amount of professional services fees was going to help that.

6:42 So when the economy crashed in 2007 2008, I was a partner in another firm. We were affected like everyone else. And at 46 years old, I just decided that I thought my chances were better and my risk was lower by, you know, leaving that partnership and starting my own thing. Okay. And when I decided, you know, we were not, we weren't getting along and everybody would agree about that. And when I decided that it was time for me to leave, then we actually started to get along.

7:12 They actually, they helped me leave and start what is today called good leadership. Now there were some non competes and things like that. But I was already working on some intellectual property then on my own around my fascination with the idea that goodness pays. That wasn't something the other partners were interested in. So they were like, yep, go with your blessing and see if you can make this ship float. Turns out the darkness and sadness of how hard it was to run a business during the great banking crisis was way worse than COVID.

7:44 And the fact that we had this positive message that we believe goodness pays, but we led with the do you believe goodness pays idea. And we got, we got off to a very fast start. It was such a refreshing and confidence building thing to prove concept on an idea that no one else was talking about. So, you know, you fast forward to seven years later. I was having a conversation with two very powerful people in in the Minnesota business market, Greg Page at Cargill and Richard Davis at US Bank and they both said we love your idea, but without research you're just a do good or with an opinion.

8:20 And so we launched a big research project then to prove that, you know, leading with what employees would recognize as goodness was actually good for the bottom line. And we probably the most important thing that that did is what has gave us a language to talk about goodness in ways that didn't seem to preachy or religious or soft or weak or any of that stuff. And so that we landed on this definition and that goodness is when people thrive together in a culture of encouragement, accountability and positive teamwork.

8:49 So after coaching and, you know, we sold, you know, many thousands of books called how goodness pays and building up organizational effectiveness coaching practice. And then we run into COVID. And what we recognize is that COVID accelerated movement that was already well underway and it's the the movement for employees to expect a very flexible and highly collaborative workplace. It was going on before COVID, but the fact that so many, you know, professional employees ended up working out of their basement or their kitchen and said, Hey, I kind of like this it just expanded that concept rapidly.

9:28 And what we're learning is that I actually believe this is the best time in the history of mankind to be an employee. All that information people had with, you know, by by being able to search the internet with the phone in their pocket. They, employees started asking for more flexibility and more benefits, more opportunities and they had more control over their, you know, the career trajectory. And so HR was successful at convincing the CEO is a C suite to really invest in general employee wellness.

10:00 I think that's a really good thing. Speaking on behalf of a dad who has kids in the workplace and grandkids now I want those people to have amazing jobs where they're investing in their wellness. And also the reason why we're studying healthy accountability is ubiquitously the C suite executives are telling us they've invested more than ever before. And they're not seeing a return in terms of accountability or higher productivity.

10:27 Well, interesting. Obviously this, this good leadership is paying off and people want to be led that way. What, what did your project set out to learn? So you need to do some research so you weren't just a nice guy with a great idea. What were you trying to establish as fact. Yeah, so particularly in the accountability world, it took us about six months of discussing with clients and partners. And we found 16 who were motivated to give their time, their access into their own organizations, refers into other organizations and pony up some money.

11:05 Good leadership has been around for 15 years but research projects like this cost a lot of money. And so everybody decided to chip in I guess we call that crowdsourcing these days. And then we were also able to recruit enough people who said, yeah, we care enough that we want to buy a table at the conference. Because what we're all looking for is, you know, what are the common sense ideas that really lead to healthy accountability that we've forgotten.

11:31 They're no longer common practice. And then most importantly, as we've organizations have adapted to the highly flexible and collaborative workforce, what are the new ideas, the things that are now proven that actually work and we call those secrets. And I can tell you that the research is, you know, I would say 90% done we're rounding third base. It included 200 interviews in multiple organizations, many, many, many, and a survey of more than 4,000 people to establish a benchmark.

12:03 And it's starting to become really clear that, you know, most organizations, if you think about the pantheon of organizations today in this world, half of us are thinking about accountability as a proactive concept. So we're getting ahead of it. We're planning for it. And then the other half, it's clear that it's a reactive concept. We only talk about it in case something goes wrong. My mind says half of us are going to think accountability is a positive thing. Half of us are going to think accountability is a negative team. That's not true at all.

12:37 It's about 85% of people still think accountability is a punitive concept. So that means those of us who are planning it for it to get it, aren't actually doing it very well. So that's kind of what at the core of it. And now we're starting to piece together. First hand observations of people who said, yeah, accountability is a really positive concept here. And we're saying, okay, tell me exactly what do you see, feel and do to get there. It's really stimulating work.

13:06 What have you found, Paul, in some of your research, if somebody does not have that accountability culture, what are some of the symptoms to show that accountability is needed within an organization? Where are some of the problems that you see that accountability solves? Yeah, I think there are three things that we see when accountability isn't healthy. Number one, the leaders at the top are not role modeling healthy accountability. They're not taking accountability. They're not seeking it. They're not promoting it.

13:34 And you know, in your opening bill, you talked about a ship without a leader has no pilot. And I would say actually, I would praise it. But I would say there's a hole in the side of the ship. That's what we're learning. Yeah. So if employees don't see and feel accountability as a healthy concept, they come to the office every day, afraid of it. That's the first thing. Or work from home afraid. That's right. That's right. They come into their work afraid.

14:06 I would say the second thing is that this relates to the fully collaborative nature of our world these days. I'm not going to blame this on everybody gets a trophy in the soccer tournament, but I'm going to tell you that's probably part of it. It's amazing to me how many organizations are unwilling to put one person in charge of things that's important. The main reason they don't do it is they don't, you know what, I'm going to give it, I'm going to give it to both of you because I don't want to hurt either ones of your feelings.

14:33 And that lack of clarity is unkind and very in some cases, very cruel. And I also think the third thing, you know, we have been in a talent scarcity mindset for quite a while. It's so easy for people to start their own businesses these days that that has taken a lot of people out of the workforce or at least for the pool when we're interviewing for talent. And we're so eager to get people in these jobs that we're not really selecting and assessing accountability as part of the criteria.

15:05 Oh, yeah. Yeah. One of the things that we talk about when we're talking about hiring salespeople is look for people of character. Look for character traits rather than just, oh, yeah, they've been in this industry for a number of years. Are they hardworking? Are they loyal? Are they, you know, how do they talk about their past employer? Those are some things that you can, you can look for to see what kind of character you have.

15:28 You know, one funny story, I hear this all the time. Accountability has become your manager watching to see if your mouse is moving and you're using your computer during the day while you're working remotely. So people have invented little machines that move your mouse in a little circle. It looks like you're active on your computer. I don't think that's neither a good form of measuring accountability, nor is it a good form of holding yourself accountable to getting the work done.

15:58 What kind of things are you hearing about what's going on and what mistakes are people making that are causing this 85% of people to see accountability as punitive. Yeah, it's an awesome question and we're going to reveal the secrets to all this at our conference on November 22nd in Minneapolis. I'm really grateful that we've set a deadline because you can study this stuff forever. Right. And right now we're doing all the, we've got these four, I'll just call them really efficient brainiacs who understand, understand data and we're starting to, we're learning a few things.

16:40 One, that people can sort of hang their hat on. If people, if you want people to seek accountability for important work, what they need are three things. One, they need to know they're the one that's accountable. Two, they need to know what's expected by when. And three, they don't want to be told how to do it. So, yeah, when you're monitoring the mouse, you're monitoring how people are doing stuff. Right. And frankly, the move, in our lifetimes, this has changed a lot.

17:19 Employees don't want to be directed down to the detail. They just don't. That's not how we were taught in school. It's not how sports teams work anymore. It's not how Girl Scout and Boy Scout troops work. But when you go to the office and somebody says, oh, yeah, and by the way, you got to follow these 11 steps. People disengage. They would say that that's unhealthy. And what's also fascinating is that not all organizations are good at what we call commitment planning.

17:48 And that is when someone accepts a big assignment that's important, a big sales quota. We're not stopping to say, hey, can we do some planning? Can we talk about what's working and what's not working and what can you anticipate that Mike go wrong and when how much time would you have to make mid course corrections to still meet that. You know, this concept was taught to me by my favorite boss ever a woman. I absolutely adore, and I mean, Lynn Casey.

18:16 She was in charge of all client services at Padilla, the PR and advertising firm where I really grew up. And Lynn would say, you know, this was back before the Internet was in everybody's pockets, but she said it's absolutely unacceptable for anything to take more than two weeks to get back to our clients. No matter how hard or how difficult we have to respond inside two weeks. And she said, I'm going to set an eight day expectation.

18:36 So she said, okay, let's talk about the difference between making a promise on April 1st and December 15. Okay. If you make that promise on December 15, you better go into overdrive for how the hell you're going to get that done. And you have to anticipate who's working and who's not who's traveling who isn't. What days the client in all these things that make total sense to this conversation right here. What we're learning is that is a common practice for how most of us grew up that is just not common practice anymore.

19:07 So true. I really love the idea of planning setting those expectations because I think if we set the expectations that we're creating accountability. If we create accountability without expectations, what are we holding them accountable to? And expectations need to be clear. They need to be written down. They need to be identified. And, and, and that kind of circumvents the process, the 11 step process to follow through. But here's the expectations when it's all done.

19:36 Here's what we want to see and then let them have the freedom to be able to do it how they want to do it. But you give them a tight enough criteria to make sure that they're not getting too off base. And, and then you can hold them accountable to that. So how does expectations and accountability work together and some of the resources you found? Well, it's funny is if you talk to the total quality management people who really kind of reinvented how manufacturers done, they would use the words inspection cycles. But what we learned is that particularly introverted, highly technical people really hate that concept.

20:12 It feels like big brother feels like micromanaging, but most everybody will sign up for communication loops. And particularly if you decide who needs to be in the communication loop and how often do we need to be talking if things are going well and how often do we need to be talking if things are not going well. So the idea here is that you're going to embrace the help of others and also the idea that they need to see your progress.

20:38 So we've been talking to a lot of law firms who really most of them now that the most of the workforce is at home. Some of them are better than others at getting people to be in the office, but most of them are at home. And what they're learning is that people are doing really good work if everything goes smoothly. And you don't really have to worry about them. And, you know, most of the time they deliver what they're supposed to on time.

21:00 But the idea that more and more often, you know, teams of lawyers are getting surprised at the last second when they haven't heard from anybody or seen anybody and they've got to go to a big client meeting and all said, whoops, we don't have that one really important thing we need or worse yet. It's not accurate. Right. Why did that happen? Because the people involved didn't create the commitment to the communication loop so that other people could jump in and help.

21:23 It's fascinating. And we're we believe as executive coaches, people who coach on organizational effectiveness. What's we're doing to change how we operate with our clients is it's no longer good enough to know your client is aligned around an idea and a vision and a strategy and set of goals. The most important work is what are you doing to build the commitment in the organization to those goals so that they can sign up to be accountable.

21:53 So seeking accountability is healthy. Avoiding it or waiting till the last second and blaming someone else is unhealthy. So, you know, all we can do is change mindsets and then teach skill sets, but this is really, really fun work. I think we're going to make a huge difference. You know, one of the things I'm as I'm thinking of as you're talking is that this balance between leadership and accountability. How important good leadership is to the accountability process because we're working with people. Yes, people are flawed and sometimes they're lazy and sometimes they're scared.

22:27 They have different personalities. You know, that person who didn't get the work done. Maybe they were arrogant or maybe they were afraid to say that they weren't getting it done because they thought the expectations. How does leadership and how we work with the different personalities involved? How important is that to finding the right type of accountability to hold that particular person to? Yeah, there's a lot in that. And I would say that.

22:58 In order for organizations to be fueled by a sense of healthy accountability where people would say accountability is a proactive concept and positive.

23:07 It's going to require executive teams and then the teams of teams that execute. They're going to have to have a common definition of what is healthy accountability. How do we see it? How do we feel it? How do we measure it on a regular basis? And so one of the things that's coming out of this big research project is a simple benchmarking survey. You know, everybody in consulting as surveys these days because you have to triangulate data. You just can't believe what people say.

23:35 And so, you know, there's a benchmarking tool here and that benchmarking tool is going to help executive leaders really identify where in their values system. This is the other thing that's interesting is that almost nobody has accountability as a value. I mean, like one out of a hundred. We dance around it. We talk about excellence and responsiveness and things like that. But the A word is virtually nowhere in the value sets of organizations.

24:03 So we got to help people understand what is our attitude about it and what commitments are the senior executive going to make so we can role model it. That's that's where things started. I think that's good leadership. You know, we talk about commitment is the things I'm willing to do differently because I love what we're building together. So that commitment has to come from the top. In addition to that. People are much more likely to be accountable if they know where they're fit and why their work matters.

24:32 So I think that's part of the commitment planning process to say, okay, in order for us to produce this podcast bill, you've got a role and we're counting on you for this. I've got a role. We all have roles. And why do we think this matters? Well, you've made the connection up front accountability is a huge part of good sales leadership. So in that context, we can all show up as our best and do our best and the likelihood we're all going to be accountable delivering something that's quality is very high.

25:00 If I didn't know any of that information, I'd show up and go, now, what are we talking about? Right. And so we're seeing plenty of sales people show up and ask that question. So where am I here? I would agree with you wholeheartedly there. So yes, you know, good leadership is role modeling what's possible and what's not acceptable. And then it's also the art and science of getting people to work together to do things they couldn't do by themselves.

25:24 So the accountability concept is all over it. And I feel really strong about the purpose of good leadership. We now see that goodness goodness does not pay without a spirit of healthy accountability. So you want to build a company where you'd be proud to have your kids and grandkids work? Good leadership means goodness and healthy accountability. Yeah, I have a it's amazing how bad people are at leadership. I have a friend of mine who works in a packing situation, right, where they're supposed to pick and pack.

25:57 And their leadership basically is to get on the radio and yell faster, faster, work harder, work harder. Yeah. And that's all. And then, you know, how many, how many items did you do today versus the hours that you were never rewarded? Just continued to ask for more. If you did 500 today to five 50 tomorrow, no reward, no benefit, no extra pay, a 2% pay pump at the end of the year. And that was your best, you know, you were the best. So you got 2%.

26:26 It's just it's just sickening, hearing how people are leading others and how they're treating them. Yep. We hear about this stuff all the time. Well, you know, we focus on good leaders who want to get better. I'm not interested in trying to convince anybody why good leadership is important. And, you know, we're luckily we're finding lots of people in, you know, professional services and business and health care and sports hospitality and entertainment.

26:53 Who really understand that this is a long game. You want to build organizations that are world class that people want to be a part of and thrive in. That's the work that we do. And I have just been blown away at the generosity and the willingness for all these people to jump in and volunteer and make this project so much better. Not only volunteer, they're paying their own money to help with the research and to get into the conference and it's humbling and inspiring all at once.

27:24 And so, well, you guys too, you're helping. I mean, I just really, really appreciate it. We think it's really meaningful work and we think we're going to make a difference. Well, we've got a great message, Paul, and I've got two questions and I'm kind of curious that I think you probably have talked about this. But if you could sum it up just so that our listeners really understand what impact do you believe this research will have on the industry.

27:46 Just sum it up everything that you're talking about when it comes to accountability and then I'll ask my follow up question. Yeah, absolutely. So when you do professional services work, you're really selling air. We don't really do anything. We help organizations do some things faster, some things better, some things easier, and we can measure what those things are. So in getting to the context of, you know, when we do the workshops, it will come out of the accountability research.

28:13 We're going to talk about, you can't have good leadership without healthy accountability. And if you have healthier accountability, what should your organization count on you to do faster, better and easier. There are some patterns that are emerging, but I'm not going to tell you guys that yet because I'm going to tell it first at the conference in November. Well, well, please. Yeah. So what, how we're going to change our industry is that we are no longer satisfied with the happy sheets.

28:43 So when you do a seminar or a workshop or a retreat, we're no longer asking. Did this meet your expectations? Were you happy with this? Were you satisfied? We're now going to ask based on the tension we created here and the changes you said you made. What outcomes can you expect and we expect to see different in your business that you're doing things better, faster and easier. And I think, you know, in a world that has been used to hiring people who are helpful.

29:09 I think we need to, we have to see ourselves is the reason people who are hiring us is they want to be more effective. Mm hmm. So we have to embrace now we've got metrics around accountability. So then we have to tie those to metrics in the business. And for me, it's not, I'm not afraid of it at all. Actually, it makes my work so much more fun. Right. Right. Cause you have a reason to do it. Mm hmm. We feel like we're a part of their team then too.

29:34 Yeah. Yeah. So my last question and I asked this of all of our guests, Paul is what book or person has had the greatest impact on your life. Wow. That's a big one. Um, that's a normal reaction to it. I'm really grateful and I'm not played. I'm not trying to play stuff at Chub. But I just want to ask a question just for our listeners to really learn something personal about you. Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to answer it. I'm going to layer it up.

29:59 Mm hmm. My grandfather gave me a copy of how to win friends and influence people. It was his copy. I got it at my 18 years old and I still have it. And that really helped me understand that there's an industry out there other than teaching in schools where you can actually help make people better. That really put a picture in my head for who I am today. There's a couple other ones, a book called half time by Bob Buford.

30:23 I read that book and that gave me the courage to leave the other partnership and start this firm. That was a powerful book. Um, I believe very strongly now that the psychology under Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich is probably the most powerful psychology. It's based on it's essentially if you believe in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's the self actualization strategy. I have read it many, many times. And the philosophies that we teach at Good Leadership are really based on that idea that if you can be crystal clear about what it is that you want to do before you're done.

30:59 And enroll other people in believing that's important. There's absolutely nothing that can stop you. And that's what we've built a good leadership on. So I'd have to say it rolls up to Napoleon Hill. Think and Grow Rich. You just hit, I think, both of our favorites, Paul, without any prep. So Bill says how to win friends and influence people, right, Bill? That's because I need help in that area. And Mike is thinking Grow Rich. And I also have half time. And I got that when I turned 50 years old. I got that book. The second half of life.

31:33 So, yeah, well, I think you grow rich. I can't believe how many people have not heard of that book or bought it or read it. It's a must read. If you want to add the third classic, the power of positive thinking. Yeah. And you have the triumph for it right there of classics. So, yeah. Well, Paul, this has been a great morning. Thank you so much for the time that you've given us. We're excited to hear more about the results that you wouldn't tell us today of your, of all of your study.

32:01 We're going to link to your GoodLeadership.com website. Any other resources you want to make available for our listeners or is that for listeners? For listeners who are within 50 miles of any direction, Minneapolis, St. Paul, we've got an event that we do six times a year. It's called the Good Leadership Breakfast. We talk about this stuff we're talking about right now. We bring in speakers. Our next speaker is the CEO of the Minnesota, Tim Rwells and Lynx, Ethan Cassin. And he has been a client of our firm for a couple of years. And we do that six times a year. So, the GoodLeadershipBreakfast.com.

32:37 And that's one of the ways I met Scott. So, that right there. And there is information about the accountability research on GoodLeadership.com. So, I mean, I just help you. I thank you guys for helping us spread the message. And, you know, as long as people believe that goodness pays is possible, then we're winning. And I think given the context of all the things that are going on out there in the media and politics and organized religion and big business.

33:07 We need goodness to pay in micro circles. That's the only way we're going to win. Wow, you touched on all three rails. Paul, that's well played. All right. Well, thank you so much for being with us. This was good. Good luck. Good luck. We're going to close with the Golden Nugget. And this is applicable to the topic they were covering. And that is from Stephen Covey. Accountability breeds response ability. And I think if we've got the ability and the accountability, we should have the response ability.

33:35 All of our information will be at winning at selling.com. That the show notes are there. This is episode 633. So, next week, our topic is going to be, what are they thinking about? And again, our book club, New Sales Simplified by Mike Weinberg, chapters one and two. Please subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues and on social media networks. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.