Special Guest Peter Beaumont

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning It Selling podcast. I'm Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems, and with me is Professor Scott Plump of the Minnesota Sales Institute. Business owners often feel overwhelmed struggling to focus on their true passions while distractions pull them away from their goals. Breaking free from this cycle is a difficult one and finding a skilled supportive team can be just as challenging.

0:27 So who can help? Join Bill and me as we welcome back Peter Beaumont to explore practical strategies for silencing the inner critic and moving forward with confidence on Episode 657 of the Winning It Selling podcast. Alright, this should be a good one and to give Peter all the time is a good one. Well, we never have a bad show. But to give Peter the time he needs, we're not going to have the book club, so next week we'll be back into the one thing by Gary Keller.

0:56 We'll be on Part 2, so read the intro to Part 2 and Chapter 10. So many of you know our guest, Peter Beaumont. He's kind of a big deal in the Twin Cities. He's the leader of SEGC, a group that meets once a month. And on February of 2021, he became a citizen of the United States, so he may know more about the Constitution than most of us do. He is a leadership advisor and founder of Beaumont Leadership Consulting with years of experience helping solarpreneurs and small business owners overcome self-doubt and step into leadership with confidence.

1:30 Peter breaks down the psychology behind the impostor syndrome, sharing real life experiences, including how successful figures like Howard Schultz, Maya Angelou, and Cheryl Sandberg have all faced and fought it. Peter, welcome back to the show. Thanks. Good to be here. Thank you. You were on Episode 446 back in February of 2021, and you were kind of a big deal back then. What's changed? Unless I'm a big deal now. I think you're more of a big deal.

2:00 You've done a great leadership with our group, SEGC, that Bill and I love attending. Thank you. He's overcome the impostor syndrome for himself by replacing it with the impossible syndrome. We'll see how this goes. There's a lot of confusion about the impostor syndrome, and I get confused sometimes when I hear about it. Is it something that many professionals experience but rarely talk about? Can you explain what it is and especially why it's common in salespeople?

2:31 I'll try to because there is a lot of confusion. I think the reason that I think it's an interesting subject is I have over my career suffered from it and didn't recognize it as what it was, to be honest with you. It's not a well-known psychological, it's not documented as a psychological issue, but it's been documented with research since 1978. It's a belief that your success is due to luck, timing or external factors rather than your own skills or abilities.

3:07 It often comes with the fear that you'll be found out. Right. If they find out I really don't know what I'm doing, then we're all in trouble. Correct. In sales, as you guys know, I had my early part of my career with sales for quite a long time. In fact, I worked with sales consultancies here in the Twin Cities. I think it's more prevalent with sales because sales were measured much more than any other job, right? We were highly visible, so we got quotas and commissions.

3:43 The fear of failure is there daily because of the actual fact that you fail. You have to take rejection. Sometimes this manifests itself with an imposter syndrome. What are some of the symptoms that somebody can look for, understand or be more conscious of when they feel this imposter syndrome starting to take ground and get some roots? I think you just hit on it. The persistent self-doubt is one. Another one is especially if you're failing in a sales job, you start to believe it's you rather than perhaps learning from the experience.

4:31 That would be one, attributing success to luck rather than the own ability because you're not worthy. I'm going to take this apart a little bit, Peter, because you might think that it's you if you're failing in sales. I would say for many sales people it is them, but maybe in their work habits and not in who they are. Can we make any kind of a distinction between I'm failing because I'm not capable or I'm failing because I don't deserve it?

5:02 Or, gee, maybe I'm failing because I've not put enough time into this thing. Yeah, I just a couple of things you just draw threads from there. But first of all, putting enough time in it often imposter syndrome, people have got it, but more time in than anybody else because of the fear of failure. So they are often perfections. And by the way, hand up because of that fear of failing, you're putting a lot more work, you're competitive.

5:29 That's not always part of imposter syndrome, but it's sometimes a sign. But to go back to the original question, the original part of the question, I think it's more about the attributes that somebody has and they should be centered in their own abilities rather than sometimes because they have a fear of failure there, they don't try and close the sale. And so often then they put it down to failure in themselves, whereas in fact, you didn't follow through the confidence and confidence is a big thing here.

6:04 Most people that suffer may post a syndrome, suffer from a lack of confidence. And there's a lot of reasons for that. So you mentioned one thing and how it shows up and maybe I maybe before I make the phone call back, I already say they're not going to buy it so I don't even I don't even make that follow up phone call. Where else does that confidence? I think you mentioned maybe closing. Where else do we see that confidence to that lack of confidence?

6:29 I should say stopping a salesperson from being able to function or to close the deals or whatever it is. What's the symptoms? Well, another one would be going to price, for example, undercutting yourself to get the deal. And I've seen an example of almost the opposite of that bill where I working for Coca-Cola many years ago, far longer than I would like to think about. I remember going into closer deal with a very large hotel group.

7:04 And we did exclusive deals in those countries where we call them pouring rights. So an exclusive deal would be Coca-Cola. And those days, four brands, exclusive pouring rights, his X amount. And we're talking about thousands of dollars or a three year contract. And I took I read the mistake of taking my division president and we knew he wanted to meet the client. And he he was so desperate to prove himself and was worried about losing the deal and therefore losing face and therefore potentially post a syndrome.

7:35 He gave away far more than we needed to close the deal. So you can either underprice yourself or you can give away more in a situation like that. But either way, you're basically undervaluing and closing the deal desperately and giving. And as we all know, price is one of those things that most salespeople go to to close the deal. So it sounds like they're self-talked. They're second guessing themselves. I've got to give this away.

8:02 We got to get this or I'm not going to look right. So a lot of this lot of this churning going on in their mind. Do you think that causes them to go back and forth and sabotage themselves? Yes. That's a really good way of putting it. So hesitation to close undervaluing offers. So as I kind of explained, assuming that product service isn't worth it. And then avoiding high-stakes clients can often be the case to, you know, where I'm just not good enough to go in.

8:33 And I'll stay in my... And you see that, by the way, exhibited with people who don't want to get out of the small ponder and they want to be that big fish in a small pond. And then over-explaining. Over justifying. Rather than, you know, how many... You guys have heard you talk about it. How many people sell themselves out of a sale? Right, exactly. Right. Because they don't stand on the worth of the product. They over-sell it and a lot of it just features and benefits rather than what the problem is that they're solving.

9:07 It seems like there's a little bit of an overlap there with one of the biggest weakness in salespeople that I've seen is a high need for approval. So they want to be liked by their prospect and they struggle to strive to earn the respect of the prospect. And I think some of the other sort of attributes of it is that they don't have a goal of a meeting. So they're not prepared or they're over-prepared and they are seeking the approval of the customer.

9:33 And when they cut the price, they don't realize that they're devaluing the value, like you said earlier, ten times more than the price concession that they offer. So they really ended up digging into a hole if they continue to go down this road of the impostor's room without recognizing it. So I've heard some salespeople talk about, you know, fake it till you make it. And there's got to be some pros and cons to kind of having that mindset or that outlook.

10:00 What are some of the examples of fake it till you make it? To me, fake it, you know, it's a good term that fake it till you make it. I think it's often misunderstood. If it means acting confidently when you feel uncertain, that can actually be helpful. But if it means pretending to be someone you're not, you're not, or you're over-selling what you can't deliver, that's where it becomes harmful. And so instead of faking confidence, you've got to build real confidence.

10:32 And we've all seen the faking confidence, right? It's tragic. It can be unveiled very quickly. So in that situation, you want, if you're going to the making saw that you're using the positive fake it till you make it, you've got to know your product inside out. So you feel confident in any questions you're going to get. Refrain the nervousness as excitement rather than, you know, we all get nervous before big things. But the best presenters I've seen reframe that as excitement and it's the same as sales personnel.

11:09 And then, you know, gather small wins. Confidence compounds over time. I think sometimes we forget how much we do win. You know, we look, we all, in the OS, as you know, I've been an integrator for years for a while. We, at every quarter, we talk about what's working and what's not working. Guess what the longest list normally is? Not working. Exactly. Because we gravitate to the things that are not going well. The things that are going well.

11:40 And I think that's the same with salespeople too, especially if they've got imposter syndrome. They gravitate to that very quickly. And it's all about them. I'm always concerned of when this, you know, I believe in the fake it till you make it, at least from a confidence standpoint. But I'm always worried when somebody says, you know, salespeople should be chameleons. They should be different. You know, a different person to everybody they talk to.

12:03 And I found over time that then I forget who I was with this guy last time. Who am I going to be today instead of trying to be their natural selves and kind of take me or leave me and realize, you know, 10% of people are going to love you and 10% of people are going to hate you and the rest of them are going to be kind in the middle somewhere and see what you do. I love that bill because that's that second part I described when it becomes dangerous is fake it to make it as the pretending to be someone you're not.

12:31 The genuine article or the being authentic, I believe is so important because you have to build trust with the customer and you can't do that if you're faking it. Yeah. Well, plus you're just changing who hates you. You know. It's like, I changed into this person. Now, somebody different hates me. They would like me. Yeah. Well, and it's the, you know, it's the whole going down that spiral of telling lie after lie and you forget the first one that you and the first two or three lies that you just it just spirals right.

13:11 Backing up a little bit to something that you said earlier, Peter, I think it was very profound. It's that the confidence sometimes when you you fake it and you're trying to be somebody different when in reality, if you struggle a little bit, generally prospects will really be different. And then you're coming at it from more of a Colombo perspective for those of you that remember the Colombo show and you're getting people to have more sympathy for you as a salesperson and empathy.

13:41 So they end up sharing more information and trying to teach you something about what they know a salesperson doing that technique effectively is going to be getting a lot of information. How do you think that would work in the marketplace with this posture syndrome? Now, I, that's a really good point. It just reminded me of situations where I've been in where a lot of the imposter syndrome comes out as being, I am going to fake it because I may not know the answer that question, but I can't be seen to be failing.

14:16 And by the way, a lot of, a lot of people have been close to syndrome a perfectionist so they can't be seen to fail. So they'll, in a situation where they're pitching or talking to somebody, they'll pretend they know the answer to something. And that's, and I discovered that that doesn't work. Right. It's far more, it's far better. I discovered to say, do you know what? I don't know the answer that but I'll certainly get back to you on it.

14:45 And then the, you're right, the customer starts to feel, well, maybe I'm a trusted person. He's open and he's willing to see the econ answer everything. But he's also prepared to find out and go the extra. Yeah. And so I got helped in calls like that. You know, they'd sort of lean over and go, Hey, it's all right. You don't know it all. Tell me what you do know. Right. It's worth there. Yeah. So you're absolutely right. I think that's something that people are not prepared to do too much, which is declared.

15:17 I don't know. It's okay. Well, do you think these people are afraid of rejection or losing so much that they'll lie to win or fake it again to win? Yeah, I do. And I think, and funny enough, people like that demonstrate that bill. Also, funny enough, they have difficulty accepting praise. Because one of the types of imposter syndrome is a soloist. They operate on their own very much and can't take praise. Don't take feedback. Don't seek it.

15:57 And so a lot of salespeople are soloists by definition. That's true. That's true. I working with Bill, Bill always keeps me on track and he reminds me of what I don't know. And I'm grateful for that because it gives me a chance to learn something that I don't know under the direction. Right. Yeah. It's people who ask him for help. Don't learn. Right. Well, I'm on the way. Sorry. Go ahead, Bill. Well, as you can see in that learning and growing is crucial, not only for salespeople or for all of us.

16:30 Yeah, I totally agree. And so again, another reason why I dug into this whole subject was I realized that I'd become one of those people where I didn't go out and ask for help. I would over research it and I didn't need any help. And I suddenly realized I was becoming an island. And that aid, that's not particularly antisocial, but you would meet people, but you wouldn't actually reach out. So that became damaging because I wasn't building up any sort of trust level at peer level, and I wasn't learning. I wasn't seeking the help that often we all need.

17:12 Is it ever an overlap between the imposter syndrome, people becoming a little bit more arrogant, a little bit overly confident? Yeah. And I mean, we all know in a sales role or process, building trust and rapport is the most important step in the sales process that they come across being arrogant or know it all. And I love some of the words that you use to describe people that are more authentic and more vulnerable, which I think they're trying to cover up with an imposter syndrome, but the balancing is becoming arrogant.

17:44 And then people don't like to talk to people that know everything because a prospect feels inferior then that they don't know as much as a salesperson does. And a prospect is not going to share something that they don't know. So they're not comfortable being vulnerable if the salesperson is not being comfortable. So I mean, you're bringing up a really interesting point. I know you're a big fan of Don Miller, Donald Miller, and he talks about being authentic in his books.

18:07 How can that authenticity be practiced and applied with the salesperson that's struggling with the imposter syndrome? Well, I think one of the things you overcome is reframe negative thoughts, for example. So, you worked hard for this to be in this position, so stop doubting it and just be authentic to use what you've just said. Another way is to talk to peers or coaches, people that you respect and be open and say, and by the way, a person I talked about this not so long ago said they hadn't gone the full hundred yards on this, but because they used somebody else's example. So I know somebody who would find it difficult to ask for advice.

19:02 What advice would you give them? In fact, it was them. But at least it showed that they were ready to approach that subject and do something about it. So, Peter, that's starting to take us into the solution area. Right? So I know you were going to talk about some famous people, Maya Angelou, maybe, and Howard Saltz that you said had the imposter syndrome. How did they overcome it? Or can you tell us a little bit about those stories as an example of how people can recognize it and then start to work to overcome it?

19:34 Yeah, so again, came across this in research, but Howard Saltz of Starbucks apparently grew up in a working class family and often felt he didn't belong in the corporate world, even though he'd been very successful, but he just felt, you know, again, as most people who suffer imposter syndrome feel, he felt he'd been really lucky despite leading a million dollar company. He struggled with self doubt and he questioned to be the right person to lead.

20:07 So what he did through some stuff awareness, and I believe he got some coaching from people around him, he focused on his vision rather than his insecurities. So what have I managed to accomplish and where do I want to go? And that took care of a lot of the insecurities of why he was there. He concentrated on success and where he wanted to take the company. And that, to a large extent, he says, overcame it for him. So you think he heard about it through coaching or other peers that he started to recognize it and then do something about it?

20:45 Yeah, I understand he was actually in a peer group. I'm not sure that it's visited something like that. And that was when it dawned on him during one of the issue discussions. And so, yeah, yeah, and peer groups are a great way. And there's a lot of them, as we all know. As you know, I've studied with myself, but peer groups are a great way to still that imposter syndrome. Because it allows you to be open and it's a close group. Nothing shared outside it. And you can, the group I'm with actually has used not just business issues to discuss personal issues, the groups that tight, that will bring things out about their family.

21:27 Well, as Scott has alluded to since he and I started partnering, we do have some friction at times, which is actually good because if we just agreed with each other, we already had that. You know, some of you sat around and agreed with me with me. So, right. So now I have somebody else who can say, that doesn't sound like that great of an idea. And then I have to get over being pissed about it. And then we have to come to some recognition of what we should do that's going to be a better solution. And it is amazing how working with somebody who you respect can bring out some things that you just were hiding or didn't know it.

22:03 I completely agree with you. I got a fairly close friend who on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum. But we can still converse and discuss about why we have those views, not just politics, but anything. And both learn from each other. And I think not to get too off the subject, that's become something that's not so prevalent nowadays. We seem to have to go to our corners. So how can we, if we discover that we have it or we feel that we have this imposter syndrome, are there two or three things we can start to do ourselves? Maybe we don't have that peer group, but we recognize it in ourselves.

22:44 What advice would you give them to start moving themselves away from that or to challenge themselves in a different way? Great question. So, I think some things that I studied, and I spoke to people about, I suppose recognizing actually you are much better than you probably think you are. So write down three specific accomplishments you've done in the past six months, last 90 days. Whatever you like to take. What are the solid things that even I look back through my career and went, what are you doubting?

23:16 You had an amazing career with three major companies and risen up through the ranks. That was one thing. And then ask yourself, did I really achieve these by luck? Or was it effort and skills that played a role? So, but that's another piece of that. A little self-analysis of what you've done. When I would teach public speaking, I'd tell people, you have to go back and look at the videos in your own mind of when you did well.

23:44 The only way to build confidence is to look back at the times you did something well and focus on those rather than always preplaying the fake failures. We kind of fake our own failures. We preplay all the negative things, and then we don't even try because it was such a big barrier to overcome instead of looking and saying, as you did. I've had three successful careers with different companies. I would look back and say, I've sold the large companies before. I shouldn't be afraid to go in and talk to the president of this company. He's got the same issues or she has the same issues that they've always had.

24:23 I'd leverage off that two bill, which is that whole piece about the three, looking back at the three careers, it's just reframing my thinking into, instead of just got lucky, I earned it. Because it took action. Right. It wasn't delivered to me. It wasn't given to me. It wasn't lucky. And so I've started, and again, it sounds like I went into therapy. Maybe I should have done. But this happens over a period of time. And we're telescoping this into just one discussion. But I noticed if I look back, I went in and out of imposter syndrome.

25:03 There were times when I got there. Sometimes I did. And I think that's true of most people. Apparently research says that 70% of people suffer at some point with imposter syndrome. But it doesn't happen. It's not continual. So another game changer for me was to act with confidence before I felt it. So your brain follows your actions. And we all know that in sales. Right? If you're much more affirmative about it with confidence, you're more likely to get a better result.

25:30 And so the bottom line is you're not an imposter. You're just leveling up. Right. Right. We're both all a big fan of Scott Wellies. And we had him on the show. I'm just the last guest. And one of the things that he brought up when it comes to self doubt or the imposter syndrome is where's the evidence? If you've got this negative belief, just asking yourself, where's the evidence? It supports the belief. And sometimes when it doesn't, you don't ever find it because it's not there. I mean, you make it up. Sometimes.

26:01 Is there a difference between self doubt and the imposter syndrome? Or there are some overlaps or, you know, how can somebody diagnose the difference between the two? Self doubt to me is much more about, it's linked, by the way, but self doubt to me is much more about something that's inherently always there. Imposter syndrome comes and goes. So self doubt is something that you have it back all the time and you hate a rejection and you look for it all the time.

26:40 And that and that it leaks into imposter syndrome, but imposter syndrome comes and goes. And it depends very much upon results and what other people perceive about you. Self doubt remains a self doubt. Just take it to another level. Is it possible that self doubt is a feeling or a thought and how you take action on that self doubt will implement the imposter syndrome or not? Yeah, I think that's a good link. And when you don't exercise on that self doubt through the imposter syndrome, then you come across as being a little bit more compassionate, empathetic, kind of more docile where you become more inquisitive and you want to learn more about something besides answering a question that you don't really know the answer to.

27:26 So it kind of maybe boils down to what we think and how we feel and what controls each other and then what we do based on that sort of that mental assessment. That's a really good I hadn't thought about that to be honest Scott. That's a really good work on that with what you're saying Peter and I mean you're creating some inspired friction with me as to how can we identify this and really work on solving it with sales people that really want to make a difference in their results.

27:50 What am I going to do differently because I think we can think about a lot of stuff and you know Bill and I are big fans of Maxwell Maxwell says you know we judge ourselves on our intentions and people judge us on our behavior. So they overlap and support each other. I don't really have a question there but if you wanted to continue with that thought is there anything that comes to mind. I think you draw a good link and I think there is one but here's the trike thing I would say is that best sales people are those who never doubt themselves right they're the ones who take action anyway.

28:25 And so that would be the piece that I would say about that nothing that's not very deep but it's the it's the answer to that self doubt. So it's not that we it's not that we don't doubt ourselves but we're able to push through it whereas if I have the imposter syndrome I'm going to use that as an excuse to move forward. Yeah I think that's that's a good that's a really good way of staying it Bill I think I think that is people do go back to excuses if they're in a imposter syndrome and as I said earlier they don't seek help when they're very solo and so what you get is a downward start to. Yeah.

29:06 Yeah. Scott we're coming back we're coming to the end I know you have a question I like to ask her. Yeah the question Peter that I asked all of our guests when they're on the show is what book person author has had the greatest impact or influence on your life. That's this several but more recently I revisited it fact the sales management code. It's probably one of the most changed the way I look at sales metrics and scorecards which is a huge part of how we measure styles and leaders progress and I thought that was amazing I don't read it but it breaks down all of the metrics that are out there and then it crashes most of them and brings it down to really activity measuring predictable results I thought that was a huge impact on me.

30:01 I'm a big cynic fan as you guys know and so obviously why I had a huge impact on me maybe take and actually took several tests on what makes me tick and I used to why Institute which is a spin off of cynic about what makes me tick and that was had a huge impact as did his latest book about the infinite game and I'm a great believer in what he talks about there where you know most businesses practice the finite game you know the game finishes the end of the year of the result and that's not actually true and that runs us into a lot of problems.

30:40 The infinite game is how do I build the business over time you know you can't have a finite marriage it's infinite you know it's a decent analogy so that had a big impact on me. And then I think the last author I mentioned Patrick Lenchoni has a huge impact on me is trust pyramid. I think it's really good stuff to build teams so there's a bit of three. I remember when you visited my office you pulled that book right off my bookcase you said the cracking the sales code and you went right to it.

31:12 What a great book if it's like yes that is a great book. It's amazing what we buy together. Are you going to get memory and be unglound very consistent. Yes you are you are an honest historian unlike some people that are unfaithful historians. I don't know you're talking about me but okay no. Alright well thank you Peter this has been a great conversation we really appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you well you've made it a pleasure I mean that thank you very much.

31:41 If you want to get contact with Peter Beaumont Leadership B E A U M O N T Leadership dot com not going to spell leadership for you can spell it. You're in the wrong program. And with our golden nugget this is from David Holy a television host expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are a good person is a little like expecting the bull not to attack you because you are a vegetarian. It's a great book. So everything we a lot of people live by that.

32:12 Oh that's a nice person so everyone. Let's go ten seconds back and listen to that again that was really good. So everything we talked about will be at winning at selling dot com for all the information and show notes look from there. Next week the one thing by Gary Keller part two introduction and chapter ten the topic don't be a sales jerk. Please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media this is episode six fifty seven.

32:41 Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.