Special Guest Jenny Niemela

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling Podcasts. I'm Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute and with me is Bill Hellkamp of Bridge Development Systems. Often when we're trying to make a sale, we get totally focused on the value we can bring to the prospect and their business. Sell them, do we consider the ramifications our new product or service will have for the people and their workflow. That's right, our new whatever is disrupting the business even as it's providing new value.

0:33 In short, we're talking about change and change management. So don't get stuck in a rut as Scott and I welcome change strategist Jenny Nemala to discuss integrating change management into sales and other fascinating factoids on Episode 669 of the Winning and Selling Podcasts. Bill Yores write the greatest introductions and I'm almost more intrigued now to listen just off of your introduction. I'm going to be looking forward to the conversation with Jenny and before we do that, we're going to be skipping the book club today.

1:06 We're doing the book sales perspective by Jimmy Zuggswort. I'm getting better at pronouncing that Zuggswort. It's Jimmy Z. We're going to be covering part two, Chapter 5. And I previewed a little bit and we're starting to get into value, trust and service forming the three facets of person, business and problems. So this really looks like a great chapter. I'm looking forward to covering it next. Yeah, it's been really good book so far. So we're excited to continue to learn. But today we're going to learn from Jenny.

1:33 Jenny Nemala is a behavioral change strategist. That's a lot to say. And founder of creative change where she helps organizations drive change management and employee adoption during times of transformation, which as we said in the intro, that has a lot to do with sales. We're trying to transform the business with a background in journalism, storytelling, psychology and technology. And sales, Jenny brings a rare mix of empathy and execution to change management, aligning people, process and technology to accelerate results.

2:03 She's led change and growth initiatives across healthcare, tech and education and is passionate about making transformation human centered and revenue generating. Hey, that's interesting because Jimmy Z is all about making things human centered in the sales process. Anyway, welcome, Jenny, to the Winning at Selling podcast. Well, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here and congratulations on your podcast. That's amazing. You've created good habits for yourself.

2:33 That's five over five years, Scott. That's got to put up with each other. So it is. You know each other more and more. That's right. That's right. Well, let's start off getting to know you a little bit, Jenny. Where are you from? What's your professional journey been like? How have you get? How did you get an end up here on this wonderful podcast? Self-promotion there. Great. Thank you so much. Well, yeah. So as I, as you said in my intro, my career actually started as in journalism as a business journalist.

3:01 I was a reporter at some of the business publications here in the Twin Cities. And then I, like a lot of journalists do that the industry's been so disrupted. I moved over into marketing and communications and ended up really on kind of in an IT kind of bucket to just that was a need in the industry for Mark. Mark, I'm around that. So that's kind of where I went and doing a lot with employee communications, so internal communications, particularly around changes and transformation that were happening in companies such as bringing new technology into a company or, you know, functional areas merging or spin offs acquisitions.

3:53 Doing a lot of communications work around that and then moving into change management, which I was sort of peripherally like involved in that whole time, but then really getting into the center of it. And it's been fascinating. I just, I really excited about change management because it's, it's all about human psychology, which is one of my favorite things to think about and contemplate and write about and be involved in.

4:24 So, yeah. So you made the jump into your own business. I always find that fascinating. What, why did you decide to do that instead of just finding a change management position at a company? Well, I think you two would appreciate this. I'm an entrepreneur at heart. I have all of those, what, six or seven characteristics that an entrepreneur has, including a willingness to take risks and be well not. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I think a lot of sales people kind of have that personality too. So I love working with sales teams and sales people because they're just, like, they're my people, you know, they're just, they're very attuned to psychology, I think.

5:03 And just understanding people and the human condition and how that all lays into helping people solve problems and their businesses. Is there one thing, Jenny, that is the biggest challenge that you see most frequently with people in general? And then I'm going to ask you about sales people. What people in general, why do they struggle with change? Why do they feel threatened by change? And then tell, talk to us about how sales people are different or maybe similar to.

5:30 Yeah, I know. This is the question that just fascinates me and I'm, I'm something of a spiritual seeker, you know, so I really like to bring this very high level into just like, like the human condition, you know, like, how are we evolved to be a species that is really attuned to seeing risks everywhere, you know, and if you think about just our history as home sapiens, you know, we have, we're program to do that to remember, you know, things that went badly more, more likely than things that went well because that's how we survived. So I think there's, you know, once you kind of find something that seems to kind of work for you, it's really easy to kind of get into a track in your mind, almost like a neuro pathway around just continuing to do things the way you've always done them.

6:25 And that's just our default setting neurologically. So in order to change your behavior and change habits, it's hard. It kind of goes against how we're wired in some ways to develop new neuro pathways and new habits and new behaviors, because that's one thing I really like about change management is it's about behavior and workflows and actions and activities. And I think a lot of, we hear a lot about like mindset, you know, and we talk about that a lot in sales, but really like it's the behaviors that are going to make the difference.

7:01 And there's some, some people who think you sort of have to change your mind before you change your behaviors, but I actually think it's the opposite. I think you need to act your way into a new, a different mindset. And so it starts with, it starts with movement first. Yes, yes, I think, yeah, exactly. And so it's really about helping people make like literal like change. And sometimes they're not even huge changes, but changes in their day to day workflow, depending on what the change is that they're being asked to do.

7:35 So what are some of the unique issues that salespeople might have, either with their customers or even with themselves in making change? Oh, that's, I like that you asked that in two parts because I think you're right. There's two, two constituencies were thinking about one we're thinking about change management within sales. One is helping the sales person think in a change management way about how they're going to help their customers, but then also that sales person themselves developing new habits, such as I listened to your podcast on CRM use. That's an age old, you know, challenge in, in the sales world is getting salespeople to use their, their CRM's have that one source of truth.

8:18 And we know how important that is. And you've talked about that in your episode of like, that's really the key to success in, in this is living, like having your CRM be kind of your, your guide for how you're going to spend your time and discipline yourself to use it. So yeah, there's really two kinds of ways that that change management I think work in sales. So I could start by talking about, I think let's, let's talk about the customer first. You know, we should always think of them first right so So I think it's really interesting for salespeople to just consider and realize that if they're selling something, what they're, they're asking that company and the employees to make a change of some kind, typically.

9:04 If you're, even if you're, you know, selling an upgrade or anything, you know, there's going to be changes that happen. And so to recognize that the person your decision maker. They have a job to do, you know, they're, they're going to have a job to do in terms of like, convincing their end users to maybe make change their behavior into using new this new new product or whatever it is. So there's some really interesting statistics. This is kind of an old statistic that we hear a lot in change management around digital transformation.

9:40 And that's that 70% of digital transformations fail, either fail outright or fail to live up to the goals that were set. And that's because the companies tend to focus on the technology, rather than the people. It's kind of backwards right I mean technology is a tool that we're supposed to use not like the other way around. And so especially in that digital space. We see a lot of companies like just get spinning their wheels because they spent a ton of money on a new platform.

10:17 And so we're only using a little tiny bit of it or not at all. Or some people just refuse to use it outright. You know, it's, it's the thing that's really fascinating to me about this is like, again, you were saying like resistance to change. Yeah. A long time ago, a long time ago I did some work with a software company. And they said, and training their trainers who would go out and train on the new product. And the number one question they got was, how can you make this do it exactly the same way as our old software.

10:46 So we go through the same steps, even though the reason we hate our old software is we had to go through so many steps. Yeah, exactly. No, I just want it the same. I know. And even if you know it's painful and it doesn't work that well and you kind of have a set. I used to it. Yeah, it's like super clunky and I have to, you know, go between different platforms and they're not integrated and, you know, but it's just my system. I know it. You know, like I can kind of do it, you know, like in my sleep in some ways.

11:15 So, yeah, that so just having that just remembering that as you're talking to your decision maker, like, like even acknowledging that, you know, like I understand that this is you're going to have to kind of sell this internally. And how can I help you do that? You know, and there are some things that I think a salesperson can do to help help them with their job of getting people to then start actually using this new new tool.

11:43 Getting back to the behavior and how we change our behavior and then consequently we change our thinking. It sounds like you're an advocate for role playing. Is that a safe assessment? Oh, yeah, that. Yes, I am an advocate for that. That's not really interesting. And I know a lot of sales people hate role playing, but what I have done a program, what are they love most? Oh, we love the role playing. You gave us the content. You showed us how to use it. You let us demonstrate in front of the group.

12:10 And now we're acting it out and we're starting to visualize a different outcome from acting it out. So it sounds like role playing really supports that change in the implementation of the application of the new content with confidence. Yeah, you know, and yeah, so in change management, we kind of see that in a couple of different ways. A big part of change management. Sometimes people actually only think of these two things and change management, which is reductive, but one is communicating about it to the end user and the other, of course, is training them on whatever the new new system process or technology is.

12:50 So that's kind of interesting. I think role playing. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that, but I could see that being useful both again for when you're that internal sponsor decision makers going to have to like, you know, again, like sell this and get people to start using it. I suppose, I don't know, like maybe the salesperson could even help kind of role play with their decision maker around how they're going to, they're messaging.

13:16 You know, how that's really important is, is that the leadership messaging to the end users about this is, you know, this is not optional. You know, like we are going to make this change and we'll have a period of transition and we'll provide you tools to make the transition and training and resources. But yeah, kind of role playing around like, you know, having a little bit of a culture of accountability that like this is happening.

13:43 It's not a, it's not not happening. Well, is it role playing just a form of practice? So any type of practice we do helps us get over that hesitancy? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes, exactly. And yeah, again, like if I think about it from a change perspective, like, yeah, helping people, you know, like what are the behaviors that are going to help them actually integrate this into their day to day workflows? And I can imagine role playing could be a good, a nice tool to use for that.

14:17 That's two episodes in a role CRM and role playing folks for those that are playing along at home. Two things that salespeople don't like to do. Right, exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. So what are some of the change management processes that you use that maybe a salesperson can integrate? You talked about practice or role playing. What are the tools can they use to help their customers overcome maybe whatever hesitancy?

14:44 I do remember in the old days when again, when I was working with software companies, we said, never say you'll be able to get rid of people. If you buy this, that this will help you with a reduction in force because the same people who are going to be making the decision might think that's them. So that's just not a selling point. Don't talk about that. So things we should watch out for. That's a really good point. And employees are really sensitive to any kind of hint that that might be coming.

15:15 They're very smart. So they get it. It's like, oh, we're bringing this in. It's going to make us more efficient. That word is very scary to avoid. At least less of me. Exactly. And often that is actually one of the values of the change. So, of course, when we again, a lot of this has to do with leadership messaging down. And so when we are coaching leaders on how to inspire people and get them excited about it and kind of what's in it for me.

15:49 We counsel them never to say like, no, there's not going to be a head count loss around that. We just don't know. So I'd never say like promise that. But there's language you can use. And I mean, the idea too is like good change management skills are our skills that people can learn not just for their professional life but even in their personal life. So even if someone goes through a change and they're not, you know, maybe they are unfortunately one of the ones to be let go.

16:28 You know, my hope and dream for everybody who's involved in a change like this is that maybe they learned some skills are a different way of thinking about kind of just like how to handle change in a more balanced. You know, have some equanimity around change because change is happening all the time at an increasing pace both in our work lives and our personal lives. So there are really some of these like psychological kind of tools that you can learn to help yourself manage change in all areas of your life.

17:04 So building on the what's in it for me. And I think you would break up a good point there. You know, our listeners are sales managers and sales people. How do you sell change to a salesperson to embrace change and how do you, what words do you give a sales manager or director of a sales team to be able to tell the sales team if they're not listening today? How do you sell change to them? Yeah, well, that's that's a really interesting question. I'm glad you brought up the what's in it for me.

17:34 And I've heard some of your episodes and you've talked about that before that it's really important to acknowledge and know, and I think sales people naturally kind of do this, but you have your different stakeholder groups right when you're selling. So you've got, you know, the leadership, they may or may not be the decision makers, but whatever change they may need to drive the change through the organization. Then you've got of course your decision maker.

18:03 And then you've got the influencers who would influence the decision maker. And then you've got like the end users who are actually going to be impacted by the change and they're the one stated day who are going to be, you know, managing that. So thinking about all that we think about is like different stakeholder groups. And one really useful tool that comes from change management is doing a, we call it a stakeholder assessment, where you, you know, we, for each of those groups you kind of think about all the different motivations they may or may not have around a change.

18:37 So it's an everything from like, are they financially impacted by the change personally like do they get a bonus of some kind if this change works, you know, or something like that. What is their emotional interest in it and this is where things get really interesting and I think again sales people kind of intuitively can kind of understand this but it's nice to put a framework around it. And people have a huge emotional investment in their work. And so if you're asking them to make changes to that.

19:09 It can be scary at an almost existential level. And I can tell you a story that really summed this up well. A company was trying to sell their software platform into an organization it was a, it was like a branding kind of thing it was like a new, a new collateral library system. And they had this very old 30 year old, very clunky kind of collateral library. And there was one woman who worked to been working there for 30 years she was the oracle of this old system whenever anyone had a question.

19:45 They went to her she was the expert and she felt like that felt like she was like really valuable. She was the only one who really understood the ins and outs of this thing. So then of course they they're wanting to upgrade it bring in a, maybe a new solution they're kind of talking about it the decision makers are like. And then she's like, I'm not going to use this. And then she's like, I'm not going to use this. And she's like, I'm not going to use this.

20:11 Nope. She just like refused. And she was the stakeholder group. They had the salesperson hadn't even realized that this woman she wasn't a decision maker. She wasn't even a leader. But she was an influencer. And she was like, I'm not going to use this. And they actually she stopped the sale from happening. So I think one lesson out of that. And I know salespeople run into this all the time. All of a sudden someone just like pops up and it's like, who's this person?

20:37 You know, and all of a sudden they have a lot of power in this. And so we really do have to make sure we've accounted for everybody. And I think that's a lot of people who are not going to use this person. And I think that's a lot of people who are not going to use this person. We really do have to make sure we've accounted for everybody. And I like your format of really assessing what those needs are. But I think also assessing how they buy what's important to them.

21:04 The economic, obviously this person was trying to save her job. And she's about this is a total threat. So we can come across as a threat if we're not careful. That's exactly right. And this transition is well into kind of this concept that I've been thinking a lot about. And that's the difference between objections and resistance. So salespeople are used to thinking about sales objections, right? And a lot of times it's like, like pricing or timing or this just, you know, like.

21:35 Not quite the right fit or, you know, whatever, though they tend to be a little bit more on like logical side. But in change management, we talk about resistance change resistance. And this tends to be more emotional. And this is where this is my favorite part of this is kind of thinking about. From a psychological perspective, like that woman. Okay. So like she, her whole like identity and value as a worker was threatened.

22:03 You know, and I think she was probably kind of getting close to retirement and, you know, just all the fears that kind of underlay her. Like response, you know, like I said, it was almost like existential. And then so then you also think about with folks like that, if you're asking an employee to like make a major change to their workflow. There may be some grieving that they go through, you know, so kind of just remembering like we're these.

22:30 We're humans were driven by our instincts at all times. And, and, you know, one of those is, you know, like relevance. And, and then if your identity is changing, you might actually go through some grieving. So if you can equip leaders with just a little bit of kind of like a perspective like that so that they can, instead of seeing people as just being like stubborn or like not teachable or just stuck in their ways or curmudgeonly or whatever.

23:03 Like to more look at them like that's a human being having an emotional response to something that's really scary to them. And how can if that employee is valuable enough that I want to really help them through the change? How can I, how can I do? How can I help them and be empathetic? Empathes a really big part of good change management. And, and again, I think that's something like salespeople like kind of naturally understand too.

23:30 So, you know, helping a little, I think the sales person, I know best salespeople are like partners and advisors. Right. And a little bit helping that, that sponsor, whoever's going to, you know, be on the ground having to make this thing happen. You know, just helping them with a little bit of understanding or on the psychology of, of change and why it's so hard for people. Yeah, I think sometimes we think everybody values things the same way we value them.

23:59 And you really need to think this person values this part, this person values this and, and how can I affect each of them differently rather than looking at them as a group? That's exactly right. So that whole what's in it for me concept. So when we think of those leaders, the what's in it for me often ladders pretty closely up to the company's overall kind of North Star goals right there. And so what I think about that is that they're really close to that.

24:29 So that, that is their goal. But once you, as you kind of go down the chain and the organization, the what's in it for me really changes. And so for those like end users on the ground, frankly, they care a lot more about their day to day workflows, their own composition, their compensation, their work life balance. Then the company's goals, you know, I mean, they might identify with like safe there in the healthcare industry.

25:02 Of course, they feel really good because they're helping people, you know, and that's it too. But on a day to day hour by hour basis, what they actually care about is their workflow, you know, and, and they're not so trying to do what's in it for me for them that has to do with these big company goals. Almost can backfire because a lot of times it's like, okay, well, we're just obviously one of them is always like a revenue.

25:27 We'll give lip service to those goals. Exactly. Yeah. And everybody's thinking about themselves, you know, that's like, how does this affect me? And that's that's natural human can again like that's part of the human condition. And that's again where the salesperson can help guide their sponsor to help them think about how to message down to those end users in a way that will resonate with them and inspire them. It seems like the human nature is we hate change because we hate loss and we fear giving something up that we have that we're familiar with.

26:05 Any tips on how to reframe that and for two areas. One is that external sales person that's selling a product to a company and then inside an organization as the organization grows and sales people within the organization have to grow and change any tips on reframing or how to deal with that loss or get people a little bit more committed to that. What's in it for me and seeing value on the other side? Absolutely. Well, this is where communication comes in.

26:32 And for leaders within the organization, the most important job they have is communicating. So, helping them, you know, with again, like some messaging, you know, to help them sell it down. The other thing is, you know, for salespeople, it's, you know, you have your people in the room when you're selling and the more diverse that group is as far as, you know, like is there are there kind of like end users at the table kind of listening to what you're trying to sell.

27:11 Trying to hear from them as much as you can. As far as that potential prospect will make them available to you, but really hearing it from from the, the horses mouth so to speak, whatever like what their fears are and their resistance and their objections as well. You know, one of the things that Scott and I have made a practice of and it's been really a change for us and is unique to our system is we'll interview 10 to 20 stakeholders.

27:46 Before we do training about what their needs are. So it's not just coming down from on high. That way when we get into the training, we've already met. They've had conversations with us. They know who we are and they feel a little bit safer. Yeah, the second thing we've done is have a reinforcement sessions up to five reinforcement sessions after where we get together and they report on how they're using the material themselves and then they end up selling each other on the efficacy of any of the new ideas.

28:15 Yeah, I love that and I've heard in your your episodes before like if you can do things in person. I think that's great, but I love I well I'm a journalist so interviewing people is such an amazing tool. You know, especially if you can do it in person because you can see the body language you can see, you know, the facial expressions and stuff like that but. But yeah, that that's what I try to do to as much as possible like ask like could I just have like 30 minutes with, you know, this this or that person or just I'd love to hear from it.

28:51 Someone who's actually using the technology, like what what do they really like about the old system and what frustrates them and have as many of those as you can until you start hearing the same things over and over again and it's like, okay, I think I've heard everything now. But that that's really yeah that and that in the discovery, you know, phase of the project as much as you can do at that point, like early on the better, but like I said, sometimes someone just like.

29:21 Hopes out out of out of the woodwork or whatever you didn't anticipate and then you kind of have to pivot and make sure you're understanding their their resistance and objections as well. Well, unfortunately, we're running out of time. So Scott has one final question he likes to ask all of our guests. If you're listening to the show, you probably know what the question is, Jenny, but what is that what is a book author person that's had the greatest impact on your life.

29:46 Oh my goodness. Well, I am a literature person. So I sound really nerdy, but I think War and Peace by Tolstoy. Has had a big impact on my life as far as just understanding human nature, you know, and that's what I'm so fascinated by and that's why I love literature.

30:07 Is that you get a chance to kind of see into people's souls around what motivates people to take actions and do things and so that's actually been a great training around for me being so interested in like human psychology. Well, that's the first time we've heard War and Peace and Tolstoy, Scott, when we've asked that question. Yeah, I have a master's degree in literature, so it's not an easy book to get through, but it's it's well worth it.

30:36 Well, Jenny, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. This has been wonderful. So Jenny, one of the resources you gave me before we got started was a white paper you did. Do you want to make that available to our audience? Yeah, I would love to. I'll send you a link. Okay. And that's called integrating change management into sales, which is what the reason I wanted to have Jenny on. So it's great.

30:56 Scott, why don't you wrap it up with our golden nugget? Sure. Golden nugget today is when we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves by a victim of the world. Thank you, Frankl. Yes. And powerful seeing. Yep, it all happens at the individual level. All right, that's excellent. Thanks, Scott. So we wrap it up today. If you all the information you want, the link that Jenny's going to provide us will be at winning at selling.com. Look for it's there. This is episode 669.

31:26 Our next episode is going to be on increasing word of mouth. And again, book club sales perspective by Jimmy Z part two chapter five. So please subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues and on your social media networks. Give us a five star review if you enjoy the show. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.