Special Guest The Amazing Hondo

0:05 Thank you for joining us on the Winning It Selling Podcast. I'm Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems, and with me is Professor Scott Plumb of the Minnesota Sales Institute. And together we have founded Franchise Sales Pro, with a commitment to work with franchise oars and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. Sales isn't just about numbers. It's about sparking curiosity, creating connections, and leaving people amazed.

0:30 Now imagine a speaker who blends the precision of a teacher, the creativity of a magician, and the insight of a strategist. This isn't just talk. It's an experience that makes your sales message unforgettable, turning ideas into impact and audiences into believers. Let's see if we can pull a rabbit out of the hat. As Bill and I interview magician and keynote speaker, the amazing hondo to discuss magic with a message on episode 684 of the Winning It Selling Podcast.

1:02 Well, Scott, this should be a spell binding conversation. It will be. I really enjoyed Preston Digitation. Well, yeah, what's that word mean? Sleight of hand. Sleight of hand. Magic. OK. Sleight of hand, magic. I tried it when I was young, but I was miserable at it because I don't like to practice things. So we'll talk about practice and other things. But before we get into that, we just want to mention no book club today.

1:29 Next week we'll be into the Power of Purpose, chapter 6. So be ready for that. And then we want to preview our next book. So you can buy it in advance. It's called The Lining Strategy and Sales by Frank Sespedis. He's of Harvard Business School. We had him on the show back in April of 2021, episode 455. And we're going to be interviewing him in episode 687, which will be released at the end of September. So our speaker today is the amazing hondo.

1:56 Hondo has spent more than 40 years inspiring audiences with his unique blend of education, entertainment, and magic. A former math teacher at Cretean High School in St. Paul, Minnesota, Hondo left the classroom after nine years to follow his passion of magic, turning his application into a thriving career. Today, his magic with the message program is celebrated worldwide, engaging audiences from boardrooms to executive retreats to PGA tournaments and NBA arenas.

2:24 Known for tailoring each performance to his audience, Hondo contributes humor, insight, and wonder, creating unforgettable experiences that both entertain and deliver many meaningful takeaways. And that's the goal today. The amazing hondo, welcome to the winning of selling podcast. Hello, fellas, how are you? Really good. And just to be total open and honest and disclosed, Hondo was my math teacher when I was in high school over 40 years ago.

2:52 So we've known each other a long time. Well, he probably made math more entertaining than my math teachers did. Yeah, and Scott, you passed with flying colors. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a long time. I've been in the past. Mm hmm. Yeah, you know, I don't know. I'm here on this show. I've got the amazing Hondo. I've got Professor Plum. And here I am, just regular Bill. I feel I need a moniker of some kind to join this group.

3:17 We need to create a label. Yeah. So, Hondo. Hondo. Let's start with where you began. So you left a full-time teaching position to jump into the deep end of the pool and become the unemployed, self-employed. How did you go through that? What were you thinking? What was the process on that? So I was a part-time magician while teaching math for nine years. And I did a bunch of little gigs for parties. And eventually what happened about year four or five into this, parents of students who worked for companies like 3M started hiring me for their company functions.

3:51 And I thought, oh, this is kind of cool. So moonlighting was allowing me to supplement my teaching income. And at some point, when I thought about it for a few years, but finally the turning point was I had got asked to be the guest speaker at a mathematics teachers convention in San Francisco in April of 84. So on the flight home from that, after I did a, you know, the gig went great. Everybody loved it. And I felt this rush from being on stage in front of a large group.

4:20 And on the flight home, I just said to myself, I think I can do this. And so I said, the only way you're going to find out is you're going to have to try. So I said, I'm going to do it. If it doesn't work, I can always get another teaching job. And so that's when I took the leap of faith. Wow. Yeah, I can always go back to that miserable life I had, right? Right. LAUGHTER Well, that's great. Now, you launched your career.

4:42 Did you feel you had something different or better or unique that you could offer the audience that wasn't just another magic show? Yeah, Bill. One of the things I realized is that if I was going to make a living at this, I would have to find a way to get hired for functions that had bigger budgets than a house party. So I realized when I was teaching math that the most important thing when you're talking to a group is you've got to get their attention.

5:11 And I realized that the way you do that is you speak their language. So before every one of my presentations, I asked a lot of questions about who's in the audience, what's their importance to you, and so on. And I try to do a lot of homework because I'm a school person, a teacher. So I do my homework. And that way, when I get in front of the group, I'm not going to seem like just a magician. I'm going to be someone who knows what he's talking about and I understand them.

5:43 So that's kind of where the magic with a message idea came from. And we had Stevie Ray on. You listened to that episode. And Stevie Ray talks about 1,000 punches. And he also talked about practicing more so that you bleed less in battle. And that message about practicing, Hondo, I think, really overlapped with salespeople. Bill, you've always said, don't practice in front of your prospects. Yeah, I can't imagine, Hondo, that you would ever go on stage and say, I think I'll do this trick for the first time in front of these 1,000 people.

6:15 But we have salespeople that they don't practice. They're always practicing on their prospects. What advice would you give them? Well, when I was 22, I walked into a magic store in Minneapolis. I'd never been in one. And the guy behind the counter was blowing my mind with these sleight-of-hand things. And I said, is there any way I can learn those? He said, I'm starting a class Monday night. I signed up for the class.

6:39 It was eight two-hour lessons. And for each two hours of instruction, I put in approximately 35 hours of practice in front of a mirror every week for eight straight weeks. That's called immersing yourself and your passion. So that's how I got going with the magic part. Now, the selling part, that's all about just being a normal human being who can talk to somebody and understand their perspective. So as a teacher, I wanted to look at teaching math through the eyes of the students.

7:10 So when I'm selling myself to a client, I look at what am I going to do for them, but I look at it not through my eyes. I look at it through their eyes. So I think the more you can put yourself in the position of the person who's inquiring about hiring you, the better shot you have. Well, that's profound. As we were getting ready for the episode, you told me about the summer that you retired in 84, and then you went door to door with commercial complexes.

7:39 Tell us about your strategy when you did that. Well, because magic is a visual art form, and because the most important thing you can provide somebody in a sale of any kind is peace of mind. How is someone gonna have peace of mind if they don't know who I am or what I do or what I look like or what I sound like? So I just said, you gotta go out there and show people what you can do. So I cold called, knocked on doors, asked the receptionist or whoever invited me in.

8:11 If I could show them a little something, then I had to show them a little something and they'd kind of be blown away, hopefully. And they'd say, hey, hang on, can I bring the boss out or can I bring someone out here? Can you do that for so-and-so? So I would, and then they'd say, do you have a business card? Sure. And so that's how I planted the seeds, and I did that for a couple months, and sure enough, several of those ended up calling me to work their holiday parties in December.

8:36 So that's kind of how I got it started. Then I did one other thing, Scott. I went to the business section of the newspapers, this is pre-internet, and in the business page, they listed the meetings. Well, I saw one that said, American Society for Performance Improvement, and I was, hey, I don't know what that is, but I like what it sounds like. So I reached out to the guy who, I reached out to the guy that ran it, and I told him who I was, and I said, can I just come and do my thing?

9:06 I won't charge you. I just want you to, I think your audience would be a good audience, and if you like what I do, if you'd be kind enough to give me an endorsement, I'd appreciate it. He said yes, and it all worked out. So I did a whole bunch of freebies early on. I think you've got to get in front of the right audience, because those are the people who ultimately can influence booking you later. Well, you really position yourself

9:29 difference from that backyard birthday party magician to really being in corporate America. I'm sure that you're getting paid a lot more than the backyard magician's are. Could you share with us some of your greatest success stories or maybe the biggest loss that you had that you wish you could have done differently? Well, I'm gonna give you a loss first because that loss was an important lesson. Early in my career, I got a call from a, I don't know, a speaker's bureau or a booking agent and they said, oh, there's a convention coming to Minneapolis from Washington DC, and they'd like someone who does magic, and you're one of three people that we heard about

10:07 or got recommended, can you propose something for us? So this is early in my career, and I figured, well, I'll propose a low figure so that they won't think I'm out of their budget. And I didn't even know their budget, I didn't even ask any questions. So I didn't get that job. I later learned that the guy that they hired was the one that quoted the highest fee. So what's the lesson there? Well, if you don't know what a customer is thinking about spending or willing to spend or has in their budget, how do you know where to position yourself?

10:41 So I learned to, at that point, I said, I'm never gonna lose another gig for being too cheap. So that was that lesson. Now, let me give you the flip side of that. In the late 80s, I had been doing professional golf tournaments and one of the sponsors was Nabisco, and they had inquired about bringing me to Hawaii for their annual food service convention. And they said, what's your fee? And I said, well, before we get into that, let me ask you a couple of questions.

11:09 I said, I went through the whole who's your audience? What's your purpose? What's your theme? What's your theme for being so important, are they? But then I asked a very important question. I said, is this a one time deal or is this something you do annually? And they said, well, we do it annually. I said, if you don't mind me asking, who have you used in the past in the role in which you are considering me? And their answer, Arnold Palmer, a famous announcer, Pat Summerall, they started naming these celebrities.

11:35 And I thought, well, those guys are way higher in the fee range than I am. So this gave me an opportunity to not lose the gig for being too inexpensive. So I quoted a fee, I think maybe 10 grand or something like that, I had never ever quoted that number and they accepted it and I got the gig. So I guess the moral to the story is you got to ask the worst that's going to happen is they're going to say no. So that was how that went complete out.

12:03 I think the moral is even deeper than that, Hondo. And that is that when we lower our price too much, people wonder what we're not going to give them. They wonder if we're too cheap, this can't be of quality. If the amazing Hondo doesn't understand his own value, then why should we give him value? Let's find somebody who's going to be valuable in front of our audience, in front of our customers. I think you learned a great lesson from that and I think taught a great one to our audience.

12:33 Well, you know, one thing I'll add to that is, I would tell any sole proprietor, whether you're an entertainer or whatever it is you do, your value isn't what you think it is. It's what the buyer thinks it is. So I might have thought to myself, I'm not worth $10,000 to go do a show, but I was to them. And then I put my prep in to justify the fee and I delivered the goods. And that's how you learn, that's how you grow.

13:02 You take on higher pressure gigs, prove to yourself you can do them and then it'll lead to more of those. You once performed for Arnie Palmer and did they ever hire you in that experience?

13:19 Oh, Scott, I was down in Orlando with a good buddy of mine, high school buddy and we were at spring training for the Minnesota Twins. And I always bring my magic with me because you got to be ready if a spontaneous opportunity develops. So I had my good clothing, my tucks, I had my magic. And we were just sitting around having a beer or something talking and he said, hey, do you ever get that gig with Arnie Palmer? And I said, no, no, but you know what?

13:43 That tournament is going on this week over at Bay Hill. So he says, really? He says, well, why don't you just go over there and do it? And I said, what? And then I thought about it. And I remember to line from Earl Nightingale who had a great motivational tape in the old days called Lead the Field. And he said, start thinking and behaving as though you already are where you want to be. So I got in the car and I drove over there in my tucks with my briefcase of magic.

14:12 And I walked in and the reception or the ladies at the check-in desk said, may we help you? And I just said, yes, I'm here for the entertainment. And they said, okay. And I just walked in. I literally worked the event, table to table, close up magic. You know, people said, you're a great man. Who brought you in? And of course, nobody did. So I had to say, well, you know, the people that run this thing. And so I never got hired, but I did it.

14:38 And now I could add it to my brochure because in my brochure, I had a line that said, as seen recently at, and I put Arnold Palmer's Bay Hill Classic. Hey, I didn't have to say I didn't get hired or didn't get paid, but I was seen there. That's cool.

14:54 I love how your stories relate to what you did to kind of sell yourself. I think so many salespeople, they sit around waiting for the phone to ring. They rely on marketing, and then everybody will flock to my door because our product's been marketed. And I just love the way that you're willing to go out there and say, let me show you what I can do. And then you drive the business because now they know you're somebody that's capable to do what you say you're going to do.

15:25 How can salespeople, Hando, take magic or any kind of display and use it to convince their listeners, their prospect that there's somebody back there, that there's somebody that can do what they need done. So how can the salesperson relate to that? What is magic? Magic is providing pleasant surprises to your audience. What is selling? Selling is hopefully providing a pleasant outcome for both you and whoever is buying from you.

16:00 Now, so I think there's a parallel. Now, as far as can a non-magician use a little magic in their selling, absolutely. I've worked many trade shows where the client puts me in their booth and I bring in a thousand or 5,000 giveaway magic tricks with their logo on them and all the people who take these tricks away, now they can become a magician and use it on their clients as an icebreaker. So I teach this sort of thing and, but can I show you one?

16:32 Sure, that'd be great. So when I would pop in on somebody to give them a little surprise, I have this little wooden thimble and it fits right between the fingers right here. Now, sometimes you can see it and sometimes you don't see it, but it's really in there. So there's an illusion always going on in any conversation. There's what you're saying, there's what people are hearing and there's what people are seeing. So I could do this real slow.

16:57 That's one, that's two, here comes number three and it disappears like that. So you gotta pay attention to the details if you wanna be successful in selling. Wow, and that's what they call them the amazing, Han. That is amazing. And we'll try to get that on YouTube for those that wanna see it in action. So when we were talking earlier, Han,

17:19 though you talked about going to a magic show or a magic store and you'd get these tricks and you'd look at the instructions as to how to do the tricks and you would practice. I remember you telling me you have like three mirrors watching your hands from different angles. And every time you'd look at the instructions, how did you take the instructions and implement it into your routine? Well, back then Scott, it was very tedious because there was no video, there was no YouTube, there was no visual instruction.

17:50 You had to either learn from reading, which I did, or when I took professional lessons from Al Schneider at Eagle Magic Store, he taught us in person, but when you are reading how to do a card trick, for example, you have multiple steps, kinda like working out a math problem, you do it sequential. So magic and math are both logically structured. Here's the beauty of magic. To learn magic, you have to be logically structured.

18:21 To perform magic, you have to be creatively agile. And I think that's true in selling. I mean, you need to know the X's and O's of your product, of your service, all that stuff, but you need to be creative and flexible to really make it happen and that's the magic. So I had to learn both. So the three mirrors that I put my hands in front of, one straight on, one from the left side, one from the right side. So I could watch my own hands and imagine what the audience is looking at.

18:56 And I would get to a point where, if I got to a point where I fooled myself, then I knew I was ready for a live audience. That's great. And the instructions would give you stuff to say during the tricks too. How did you change that? Well, every trick that you bought back then, and I suspect maybe still as the case, is it comes with what they call a suggested pattern, P-A-T-T-E-R, which is the magician's term for what you say while you perform.

19:27 And I tried the pattern and it was terrible. It was, I felt so, it wasn't me and it was hokey and it was just, it didn't work. So that's kind of what helped propel me into the magic with a message. I said, I have to come up with my own language to support these magic things I'm doing. And so what should that language be? Well, when you start out, you make the mistake of telling the audience what they're looking at, which is stupid.

19:55 Like I can say, I have here in my hand a deck of playing cards. Well, no kidding. They can see that. So don't state the obvious, rather, start speaking not toward the reality of what you're doing, but start speaking toward the experience you want the viewer to have in their own mind and in their own heart. And if you're selling, that's the same thing. What you say has to relate to their emotion and what they're interested in.

20:26 So I needed to come up with pattern that fit the audience. And so that's a huge part of what I do before every performance is I create all that for each show. But when I'm doing impromptu magic, like at a party or just out at a coffee shop and someone says, hey, you're that magician. You got anything in your pockets? So I'm always just doing things spontaneously. And then I come up with my own pattern right in the moment and just relate it to them.

20:54 I might ask them, what do you do for a living? And they'll tell me. And then I'll just relate the trick to what they do for a living. So trying to be appropriate and relative to who you are talking to is huge in my world and in anybody's sales world, I think. Well, it really goes back to something you said earlier. And that was I need to find out who the audience is and what's important to them, why are they listening.

21:20 All those things are the same things that we need to think about before we go into some kind of a sales presentation. Stocking to Scott the other day in our preparation meeting. And I remembered one of our fellow professional speakers, David McNally, who's awesome, he was told the story about how he went in to buy a car. And he told the sales person what he was looking for. He gave them like four things. And the sales person said, well, here's a car right here.

21:45 It has all four of those things. And Dave says, great, how much is it? And whatever it was, I don't know, it doesn't matter. He says, great, let's do it. And he was all set to buy it. And then the sales person says, oh, by the way, this thing also, and he starts listing six or 10 more things that this car can do or has. And all of a sudden, Dave says, gee, none of those are important to me. And I don't even care about them.

22:06 I guess I'm paying for those things. And I don't want them. And this guy talked himself right out of the sale by not knowing when to close his mouth. I think we just talked about that, Bill.

22:17 I wanted the episodes. I always laugh about a friend that I used to work with. I say, they talked him into, he talked him out of it. He talked him into it, talked him out of it. And whenever he shut up, they were either in or out, but we just never know as random. So in the last talk. Going back to the pattern, I think that that's really important to be able to have the sort of the narrative or the vernacular to be able to support your style.

22:39 I think everybody practices the same trick. They all have to be able to manage it, and deceive and create that illusion the same way. But they all also have different narratives. And that's really the difference between a sales process and a person's professional and personal style. And that's just the way they role. So I love how you integrated that into following the same system, but making it personal representing what your reputation is in the speaking world.

23:04 Yeah, I think that if you're being true to yourself, if you are who you are, you're going to be safe. I mean, I've often used this line. I tell people they can always, you know you're becoming successful. I knew I was becoming successful at this, not because they were hiring me because I was a magician and a speaker, but they were hiring me because it was me. They can always find somebody else that does what you do, but they can never find anybody else that is you.

23:39 So make what it is about you so unique that they can't get from anybody else, what they can get from you, if they value the things that make you you. And obviously nobody is for everybody, but it's a big pond, a big sea of opportunity out there. So I know my niches, I know the kind of clients that like me and work best with me, and there's enough of them. So I mean, I'm not a Las Vegas glitzy kind of guy, so I'm not going to be the one for a, you know, razzle, dazzle production, okay?

24:15 I know that. So knowing what you are not is as important as knowing what you are. That's really profound. And imagine that you find tricks to be able to support who you are, not learn tricks that don't support who you are or your message that you want to convey to them in audience. Yeah, I just came back from a magician's convention. Out in Vegas called Magic Live, I was among 1600 fellow magicians, some famous professionals, others just hobbyists, and they have a dealer room, which is like a trade show with magic suppliers.

24:47 I dropped a couple grand on new tricks. And, but there were some great tricks I saw, but they weren't for me. They wouldn't fit my style. So even though they're great, I just couldn't see myself doing them. So that goes back to knowing what it is that you are good at. And if I was, you know, if a salesperson, you know, selling is selling, but if somebody has a particular line or something that is in their blood and it's in their heart and the kind of people that are their customers that they resonate with, you know, if you resonate with buyers of what it is you are inspired to sell, you're gonna be golden, but you gotta know who you are and who your audience is.

25:31 Well, that's exciting to know who you are is very important. And it really makes you able to relate to the people better because you're not trying to be fake to each one of them, right? As we wrap up today, how can people reach you, get to find out about your speaking or doing a show for them? Well, I have a very creative magic website called HondoMagic.com. Took me a long time to come up with that. Not really. HondoMagic.com and that has, that has like a career's worth of my story and a way to get in touch with me, phone number, email, and so that'd be the best place, HondoMagic.com and I've also got YouTube videos.

26:12 We'll make sure that's linked on our show page. Right. Before we go, Hondo, I always ask our guests, what book or person has had the greatest impact on your life or your career? Well, since most of the books that I read are technical and magic related and so on, I'm gonna go with persons. I got two. Paul Pearly was my high school math teacher at Crete and high school. I graduated in 1970. He was like six years older than me.

26:36 One day he let me do magic in front of the class. Now this was an honors math class, brightest kids in the school. I was petrified, but I did it. I pulled it off and it worked. About two weeks later, he says, you know, you're pretty good at this calculus. How would you like to teach the class? I said, are you serious? So he had me teach a class. So this one teacher had me do magic and teach the class. Those are the only two things I've done professionally in my life being a math teacher and being what I do now.

27:06 So that was him. The second one I need to mention is I just did a YouTube tribute video to this guy. He was an old coach of mine, just turned 85. Bill Peterson, Bill E.P., he was my American Legion baseball coach. I played two years alongside Dave Winfield. Paul Moliter came around a few years after me. Those two guys both played for Bill Peterson and they're in the Hall of Fame. But the reason I mentioned Bill Peterson, when I met him, I was 16 and I had no confidence in my game.

27:32 And he sent me up to the plate and he says, let me see if you're any good. Because I told him I wasn't a good hitter. He put, he piped five or six pitches right down the middle. I hit line drives out into the outfield field and he says, you're a great hitter and don't you ever forget it. And so all of a sudden this little 16 year old kid who didn't believe in himself, I just lit up inside. And I think the point of that is, and I've told him this, I said, you were the one person that believed in me more than I believed in myself.

27:59 And when someone does that for you, you rise to that level. And so I'm hoping everybody listening to this can think back to who was your teacher or coach or someone important that made a difference in your life. Wow, what a great story. Yeah, it's amazing what just a few words of encouragement can mean to somebody and that's lasted with you your whole life. Absolutely. Well, it's great having you on the show,

28:26 Han, I can't believe it's been this long since we've been doing the podcast that we haven't had you. So thank you for your message and thank you for sharing your life experiences with our audience. And I know there are gonna be listeners that can apply what you shared today. So thank you. Do we have to cut it off or should we do the quick trick for everybody? Well, we could do one more, sure. All right, yeah. No, this is one that you all can do.

28:48 If you're listening, I'm once gotten Bill, everybody listening. Think of a number from one to 10, but don't tell anybody what it is. You got it? Yep. Okay, double it. Okay. Mental math. Add 10, okay? Divide by two. Got it? Yep. Subtract the number you started with, if you can remember. Yep. Interesting. Now, if I was doing this in person, I'd have each hand behind my back. And I'd say pick a hand, left or right? Left, right?

29:27 Which one? Right. Right. And I come out like this with five fingers. Was your answer five? Yep. The last answer was five. The first one. The final answer, yeah. Wow. Yeah. If you'd have picked the other hand, it would have been three. Wow. Wow. So the answer is always five. Yeah. Yeah, the answer is a simple algebra. And, you know, I was on Boone and Ericsson on CCO many years ago. And they said, can you do a magic trick on the radio?

29:55 I said, sure. I said to everybody out there, think of a number from one to ten. And then I waited about 10 seconds. And I said, your number is six. Ten percent of the listeners called in says, the best trip they ever heard on the radio. But I'm bummed. As we wrap up today, we thank the amazing

30:13 Hondo again for the great information. We do have a Golden Nugget. And I think it's interesting, because I hadn't heard the story about your baseball coach. But this is from Bob Nardelli, the CEO of Home Depot. I absolutely believe that people, unless coached, never reach their maximum capabilities. And so I love your coach story about that. Yeah, very good. Very good, so everything we talked about would be at winning at selling.com.

30:40 Look for the show notes there. And the information about Honda, we can connect with him. Next week, our book club, The Power of Purpose, a guide to discover yours, we're on chapter six, and the topic is, are you coachable? Please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media. And if you're so inclined, give us a five star review. This is episode 684. Go out and get better one skill at a time.

31:06 Joyful selling.