Creative B2B Prospecting Ideas

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling Podcast. I'm Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute and with me is Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems. And together we launched Franchise Sales Pro with the commitment to work with franchise ores and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. One of the most crucial and creative aspects of selling is developing new customers. It's also what separates the farmers from the hunters.

0:30 Unfortunately, in the current business climate, it seems more difficult than ever to find and connect with your ideal client. But there are some strategies you can use. So dust off that prospecting list as Scott and I put a stamp on, creative B2B prospecting ideas and other novel nuggets on Episode 691 of the Winning and Selling Podcasts. Before we dive into the book aligning strategy and sales with Frank Sespedis, we're going to be covering Chapter 6.

1:01 We want to share an announcement. Hiring a sales rep can be a daunting proposition. Some sales leaders put up with underperforming sales people because they're afraid of the hiring risk. So what are the reasons this process goes so badly? According to a number of studies, there are three main reasons that the new sales rep fails. First is misaligned expectations. Some people hope that selling will be easy and when they have to prospect or face rejection, they cave.

1:29 Second is failure to fill the funnel. This often happens when a salesperson believes they will close at too high a percentage and so will need less prospects. Third and finally, you have inconsistent follow-up, meaning that they give up too easily when the prospect hesitates. Wouldn't it be good to know if the person you're hiring has the passion and perseverance to really accomplish the sales process? You can if you're using an assessment that measures a candidate's core competencies that have been shown to predict sales performance.

2:00 The Winning and Selling Podcast is partnered with a group whose salesperson assessment will measure just those competencies that are essential for success. To learn more, go to mnsales.com.com. That's mnsales.com. So our book club today is Aligning Strategy and Sales by Frank Sespides. We're going to be covering part two, Linking Strategy and Sales, which is chapter six. So most companies have a strategy. Every company has a sales team, but very few take the time to link the two.

2:33 Our author, Frank Sespides, argues that the biggest reason strategy fails isn't poor planning. It's poor translation. The strategy never makes it to the street. He explains how to turn strategy into sales tasks, what sales people actually need to do every day to make that strategy real. So we're going to be covering that today in chapter six, but let me remind our audience about what strategy is from the first session that we talked about when it comes to the book.

3:03 The book strategy is the fundamental movement of an organization from its present position to a desirable but un-inherently uncertain future position. The path from here to there is both analytical, for example, reassuring the value proposition and behavioral reviewing the sales activities. It also includes which customers we will not serve, what services we will not offer, and what activities we will not invest in. I think we need to be able to maintain that definition of strategy as we start talking about creating strategy and task.

3:35 Bill, what did you think of this chapter overall? Well, I think Frank is a very good thought leader in this area, and it's not an easy read. I had to read it twice and catch it. And, you know, we, I think the reason is, is that as sales people, we don't do much strategy. We tend to go out and do things. We like activity. And what Frank's talking about is making sure that your activities are giving you the most value, and he's going to kind of talk about that later on.

4:07 He talked about personalities and selling styles early, and now you're going to go through that. Yeah. And I have some comments about kind of what he's talking about there, but very interesting chapter and not a slog to get through, but complex. But I caught myself thinking a lot about situations we had found ourselves in, both as sellers and as trainers of sellers of the of the errors that people were making. And we have many of customers. I don't think they have much of a strategy.

4:40 I think they're very reactive. I think they're working on a survival mode and they feel like they probably are not in control of everything. So they have to react to so many things that come at them. I think one important aspect of sales is there's a sale style, which is a personality and there's a sales tasks and the role, which is the behavior and the obligation and the process. So we've got the style and the process. So there's one more thing.

5:06 What's that? That's the character. Character, okay. Okay. So you've got style, and you're going to go through some of those styles. And then you've got the tasks and how those styles fit into working with certain types of sales. But then you also have the character, the perseverance, kind of what that assessment shows. Yeah, follow. That's another layer that you have to have. So I can have different styles, but I better have perseverance no matter what my style is.

5:35 Right. Right. So he opens up the chapter with some stuff and neurological and brain stuff, and I don't really get into that. I didn't really highlight that. But that's important. Get the head stuff out of the way. I don't think I can change how my brain works. But he then gets into the people and he lists 10 people that are popular kind of sales. It was kind of a study that was done or a book that came out of the 10 best sales people ever. Right.

6:02 So I, and I'll rattle off a couple of them. One of them was Dale Carnegie and each of them has a certain style about him, a personality. This is the way they roll man. And Dale Carnegie was known as being an effective communicator. So that was his reputation. We have John Patterson, who's the founder of NCR National Cash Register. He had a very strong stern control freak. He wanted to always know what was going on. Dale David Ogleley, who's a pitchman, ad man, he always liked to talk about other topics beside advertising with people.

6:37 So a very different style when it comes to working with prospects. Joe Garard, he was a car salesman. He really followed the law of averages. And he said, don't talk to anybody. That's not a qualified buyer. So he became very discriminating against who he was going to talk to and how he traded his time. Ron Popiel, he was a pitchman, did the pocket fisherman and some other gadgets. And he always wanted people to like him. That was kind of his pro sauna.

7:04 And then Larry Ellis, who's the founder of Salesforce, he was being known as the king of aggression, assertion. And if you think about the different styles within these people, you need to be able to have a strategy to be able to leverage their strengths. If you don't align that accurately, you're going to create a mismatch and that trust rapport is not going to be built. Well, and he's going to go into types of sales, you know, and you're going to go that in a minute relationship sales versus transactional sales.

7:34 But I think that we, the way we sell has a lot to do with that. I need to be an effective communicator if I'm going to try to make the quick transitional sale. But I'm going to build that relationship. So, so some of these people did bet, did well because they found a selling area that fit their personality and their style. So I think that's, that's something. And for you, that's true for you and I, we've been successful because we build relationships, but we also are problem finders and solvers.

8:10 Yeah. Yeah. So he, this is out of the book. He says, selling effectiveness is not a generalized trait. It's a function of the sales task. So as we start getting into the sales task, we've got relationship sales and transactional sales. And I just want to draw some comparisons among a couple of key areas. One is relationship sales is more of a longer time horizon. So it's more of a long game versus transactional sales is a little bit more of a short game.

8:39 I think there are some very strategic good companies that can take a transaction in order and then leverage that into a relationship with multiple orders. So you can still fit into both of them. But knowing which role you're playing at the time is really going to determine the effectiveness of the outcome. Well, I think too, you have to look at kind of the, what you're selling. So look at cars, for example, I think cars are a very transactional sales. They've tried to make a relationship sale.

9:09 But really I go in looking for a car and I'm planning on buying a car probably within that next month. I'm going to find the deal in the car and et cetera that I want. So it's very transactional and I can probably be closed with the right opportunity on the first deal. Where so there's a lot of those that are big sales, but they're still transactional. Right. And you're not going to buy another car for five more years, six more years.

9:37 So I never plan on buying a new car unless it gets hit and it doesn't work anymore. Yeah. Well, that's how I got my last one. So yeah, exactly. So the next one is comparing the larger investment in specialized procedures and assets when it comes to a relationship sale versus a small investment in specialized procedures or assets in a transactional sale. So it's going to require a larger investment of energy time. You're not going to be able to manage as many of them as in a relationship sale versus a transactional sale.

10:11 You could do multiple transactions within one day and it's going to be a lot faster and a lot easier and there's just not as much of an engagement with the transactional sale. Yeah, I think you're, you know, you just don't have this long term follow up. You're not, you know, you're solving a problem, but it's not a complex problem again to use the car example. I use my car in a certain way that a good salesperson would would ask me some questions about that. I tend to prefer a sedan. My wife tends to prefer a van.

10:41 Neither of us like SUVs, which cuts a lot of things out of the market for us. I have no interest in SUV. I find them to be terrible vehicles. They're not big enough to fit anything and they're not small enough to, you know, to be called compact. So I don't see the need, but then people love them. So a good sale person would still try to find out what I'm trying to do. How am I using my vehicle? What do I prefer in order to find out what's one to steer me to to try out?

11:12 So I think that we can we can still do a lot of the right things in a transactional sale. It just happens faster. It does. It does. Here's the one I think a lot of salespeople come encounter with is the switching cost. Obviously, the relationship sale is going to be a higher switching cost or system benefit and a transaction is going to be lower switching costs and system benefit and switching costs. I think have a greater influence. The bigger the transaction, the more of the relationship sales. So you almost have to deal with that objection right from the beginning and uncover the motivation as to why they want to change.

11:48 And you need to introduce the idea that it's going to be a little bit of work to switch over to another system. Well, and that switching costs isn't always a monetary cost to switching true. It's emotional. It's change. It's, you know, when I was helping people with software, the question that the instructors got is can you make this work as badly as the old stuff that we're used to? Right. So that was a switching cost for the end user.

12:16 Yeah. Yeah. Frank compares the two of partner being involved. So a relationship sale, you're buying a partner and its organization. So you are really integrating that vendor, that supplier with your business. And they have a tremendous influence even after the transaction because of the relationship versus the other one is, you know, you're buying a product or performance. You know, you don't really care about the company that you're getting into business with or you're partnering with. So there's a little difference with the transaction.

12:47 And then the last one is coordination of the major sale is going to be required for a relationship sale. So you're going to probably involve other people. There's going to be people on both sides during this, you know, transition. And transaction is going to have minor, minor requirements. If you were just to, you know, buy a new cell phone or switch cell phone carriers, that's a transaction. And it's going to probably be simple to do, maybe a little bit of a hassle on switching over phones and apps and stuff like that. But once it's done, it's done.

13:18 And now you move on. There's not a lot of coordination in that. I did like that he got into later in the chapter matching your potential client, what's your ideal client profile? And he starts to talk about how important that is when we start to get into prospecting. I think that's a very important thing to know. Yeah, yeah, very much. It's all in how you approach the conversation to long game or short game. So in closing up this chapter, he says matching up the relationship sales programs and resources with relationship opportunities, just like we need to match up transactional sales and programs with resources for transaction opportunities.

14:01 So look at that. And then he summarized it by combining the effectiveness of the people in the sales task within your program is the strategy. And that's how you can get the most outcome and most results from matching up the strategy with the sales tasks. They'll be able to give you the greatest return. Yeah, a lot of important information in this chapter and in this book. So if you're not following along with us, I'd recommend getting the book because we are not even scratching the surface really in these 15 minute talks about what Frank's talking about.

14:32 So a very important chapter, very important information. So thanks for going through that, Scott. Before I'm anxious to get into the topic of prospecting, but before we get into that, Scott has another announcement. Have you ever thought about running your own business? A franchise might be the perfect way to make that dream a reality. Think of it as a business and a box with a proven system, ran recognition and built in support.

14:56 If you're a skilled technician ready to explore entrepreneurship or our approaching retirement, but not ready to stop contributing owning a franchise could be your next great chapter. It's a big decision with lots of moving parts and doing it alone can lead to distractions and missed opportunities. That's why we work with experienced professionals who can guide you through the franchising journey. If you'd like to talk with somebody about franchising, visit mnsales.com slash offers and we're going to be continuing to build out that page, complete the form and we'll connect you with somebody who can work with you to navigate the path of franchise ownership.

15:32 That's mnsales.com slash offers. This guy said we're going to build that page out and look for other partners to work with. Just last week Scott and I were meeting with a friend and client. One of the things he expressed in the conversation was how difficult it is to prospect for new customers in this current business climate cell phones instead of desk phones and people try to hide their email because they get so much spam.

15:59 I told him that we're going to talk about this topic today. He said, you got to send me, make sure to remind me to hear that. I'll make sure Scott does that. Thank you. Scott's better follow up than I am. For his benefit for yours here are some creative and effective ways to prospect new B2B customers in today's marketplace. Each approach blend some modern tools with relationship, which we talked about last, you know, in the relationship strategies to help you stand out in that in that marketplace.

16:34 So, number one, leveraging LinkedIn for social selling. We have a good friend Joanne Funch. And if you want to really dive into this, she can help you with that. We can connect you with Joanne advanced search filters. You got to use sale. You can't go with the freebie. If you're going to really use LinkedIn, there's just too many limitations on the free offer. You've got to get sales navigator or one of the more advanced ones.

17:02 But that allows you to target decision makers and do more filtering in your search to find out maybe it's an industry or a title. Maybe it's a recent job change, but you've got to use a search filter. You've got to do some outreach. You've got to drive some content through there. This is where Scott and I really spend most of our time putting out going content, newsletters, those sorts of things. We've created the short two minute videos from this. We put that on LinkedIn. We're always linking in the things that we're doing.

17:36 So, I know Scott's got over 2000 followers. I've got over 2000 followers. So, you've got to build that group up and then create good outreach to it. Then once you start doing that and you start opening up those doors, you're going to be able to get more warm introductions. So, who do you know that I should know is a great question and find out and use those people's LinkedIn groups to provide an introduction. Scott, some thoughts on that?

18:07 I really like this topic of using LinkedIn. Blogging, I think, is really important. Just getting a thought, putting down 750 to 1000 words on it. If you want to put it on LinkedIn and through a form of a newsletter, newsletter seemed to be becoming more and more popular. But even if you just posted on your website or post it within LinkedIn, it's amazing how those seeds end up growing weeks later. I think about the video that you post on your page about our podcast and I'll see people commenting on it two weeks later or three weeks later.

18:41 And that just comes to the surface. Again, it's a reminder of everybody about the resources that you have and we have. Well, I think too that the more that you can post on that, that is the only social media that is uniquely business. And I've seen people try to move away from business and they get hammered on it, which I'm glad of. I don't want to hear your political views on LinkedIn, but I do look for LinkedIn for new information and new ideas.

19:06 And so I think that's where you can become a thought leader in your marketplace by commenting, by answering questions, by being active on that social media. Maybe you take 15 or 20 minutes a day, but you've got to do it daily and really think about it and have a strategy in what you're going to do there. All right. Number two, host micro events or round tables. So, Scott and I, as one of the things we're doing is a franchise sales program.

19:35 We've been, we've been hosting round tables at shows and things like that. We go to those events. So we're known at those events. We've done webinars. We do webinars online. And just the other day, we did a small meeting about a training program we're putting on. So we had a group together and we did it. You've got to be able to present to be an expert in the field. You can't wait sit around waiting for your phone to ring, but by hosting events, especially online, I just saw a guy working one of the things that Scott and I want to move toward is doing some more live streams, doing that on a regular basis so that we can develop a, continue to develop our audience. And that provides for them some knowledge, some effort on your part and be, make sure you're an expert that people want to talk to in further detail about it.

20:30 Thoughts on those kind of round tables, Scott? Yeah, I like those gatherings and building that network and you're building a reputation. And I'm journaling more now in my life than I ever had before. I've got a few books laying around the house in the office and there are times where I come up with ideas or thoughts and I write them down in there and then think about them dwell on them subconscious mind works on them.

20:52 And then all of a sudden there's a nice thousand word blog that comes out of that. And it's just different approach based on all of the distractions in today's marketplace. So number three is to create value first campaign. So when you're out there looking to attract people, what are you giving them? What value are you providing them? So, so can you come in and do an audit of some kind? Can you offer a health check of some kind of an ROI audit?

21:21 Scott and I spend a lot of time early on doing assessments with our sales assessments. And so we'll do some of that pro bono to show that we can do what we can provide them with value. Can you provide some kind of an industry report? This is a real big now. Anthony Enorino has always felt that when you come in for a new sales, you're not just asking them questions about themselves, but you say, listen, I've got a, I want to give you a five or ten minute report on what's going on in the industry, what we're finding because we're out talking to a lot of people.

22:00 This is what Scott's always talked about that bringing ideas in the value of a consultant is to bring ideas in from the outside. So can you present a little bit of some research that you've done, even if that research is just in all the different people you've spoken to about the about that industry? So what industry knowledge can you bring to them? You talked a little bit about that with the challenger sale and traditional salespeople that are not listening to the podcast, so we don't have to worry about offending them as they're not listening.

22:30 Is they approaches sales conversation with what's keeping you up at night? And the essence of the challenger sale is what should be keeping you up at night. Here are the, here's the direction of the industry. Do you like where it's going or do you feel like you need to go in a different direction? Let's talk about that. And now that sales person with all the experience in the marketplace then shares the solution with them that they can use. It's relevant, you're relevant and it's valuable. They're willing to pay for it.

22:54 Right. Excellent. All right. Number four, use AI and data intelligence. Now, I am not really good at this. This AI is fairly new, but there are some good programs out there that you can use, zoom info, six cents, boomba. They can show you what company you can use. They can show you what companies are actively researching solutions like yours. So can you start to get some incoming leads that are coming in because people are researching.

23:20 They're out there looking in the marketplace and then you can interact with them. Do you have something good on your website, a good tool on your website that will track who's coming on to your website and then you can reach out to them? You know, 10 years ago, that would have been seen as kind of invasive, but I don't think it's invasive anymore. I think people are expecting if you go on to a website and then somebody calls you and say, Hey, look, I know you're on our website.

23:45 Is there anything I can help you with? I don't think that's as invasive anymore. So start to use some of the tools, predictive analytics, those sorts of tools to be able to find out where that customer is and market to them directly. I want to build on an idea that you mentioned earlier, Bill, about doing these webinars in these roundtables. And like you said, technology, this zoom info and other programs like that, you're not as well versed in it.

24:11 And it seems like there are so many that come on to the marketplace. It's tough to really invest in one because there's a better solution around the corner. If some of our salespeople want to do an event covering one of these apps for their customers to be able to use it more effectively, what a great end to have a conversation to be recognized as that resource person that other people are using. And that means you need to do a little bit of research sometimes, right? You need to bring something to the marketplace. You can't just keep doing things the same old way.

24:37 Things are changing right now. AI is changing everything. And so you need to stay current on it. It's kind of like if you're walking around with a flip phone still, right? You're seeing as somebody who doesn't know what's going on. So you need to stay current in the marketplace. Number five, strategic partnerships and co-marketing. And I think this is really an area where companies can grow. And it's funny because I can always see this better for my customers and I can see it for myself.

25:05 But as I listen to what they're doing, I make connections and say, you know, are you working with this kind of company? One company that we have done some work with consulting engineers or should be partners with them. But they don't go out and talk to enough consulting engineers. They hope it comes through their distributors. So you need to find the people that are kind of hidden in your marketplace and co-market with them and build those relationships in different areas.

25:31 So don't just go to your normal customer. Think about who's your customer's customer and how can you work with them? Or is there another company that is after the same kind of customers you are? But you can't just go to your normal customer. Or is there another company that is after the same kind of customers you are, but you don't compete with them and you can share those customer database? You know, it's kind of like these networking groups, but it's much more specific. I haven't found networking groups to give me the right leads because they don't have the same kind of customers that I do.

26:00 So I'm looking for somebody who sells to my type of customer and then I can share information and relationships with them. This is what I like about building those referral networks is the meetings that we go to, the folks attending generally are not folks that writing out checks for us. However, they do know people that would write out checks for us. And if we're searching for prospects or we're watching the news, reading blogs, seeing what's changed in the marketplace, then we find a name of somebody within a company.

26:33 We can look them up on LinkedIn and find out, hey, somebody that we know that's in this organization knows this person. How about if I ask them to make an introduction for me? And it makes that conversation a lot easier to start. And it really shortens that sales cycle if there is a match and a way to work together. Yeah, I like it shortening the sales cycle. And again, the more specific you can be on who your customer is, the more you can shorten the sales cycle because you're talking to the right person.

26:57 We spend an awful lot of time talking to the wrong person. And that's why all these tools can help you. But you've got to have an ideal customer profile so you know you're not shotgunning it. And just, you know, what's the old saying? The good news is everyone's our customer. The bad news is everyone's our potential customer. So be careful of that. All right, number six, hyper personalized outreach. So now we're starting to really get granular when we found somebody who really looks like they could be a good customer for us.

27:26 We can have trigger based messaging. So we're looking for particular things to happen online and we find those people and then we're able to do some marketing right to them. Customize demos. So we offer a free demo to people, but it's customized to their needs. I've always felt the more generic something looks, the less a customer is interested. Hey, this is just for everybody. Matter of fact, Scott and I built our reputation on nothing off the shelf. We don't have anything in a box. Everything we do is customized for our customer. So that's very important.

28:01 And I also like this gift driven prospecting. I like, I like if you're going to do something through the mail. Have something that's going to catch their attention. And that's what's nice about the mail these days is that it's so unusual to get something in the mail. You know, our mailbox has junk and one letter, right? So if there's something interesting, I'm going to open it. Some kind of package. So I think, but that that's expensive to do.

28:29 So it can cost three, four, five dollars to do each one of those. So make sure it could cost 10 or 15. So make sure you're sending it to the right person. That's why we say hyper personalized outreach. Yeah, I want to build on the demos. It's a qualified prospect gets a demo and unqualified prospect is not ready for a demo. It's not no, it's not ready. And when you start to qualify them more and they start making an investment, the prospect starts making more of an investment and the possibilities of buying from you, then they can qualify for a demo.

29:02 But if they're not willing to make an investment of time and energy and the switching costs, they're not ready yet. It's not that they're not qualified. They're just not ready. So maintain that follow up and maintain that relationship. And I think you're going to have a good chance of converting it into a commitment. All right, one last one I want to talk about engage in niche communities. I think one of the big mistakes and I know I've made this mistake myself. I tend to engage in communities where the people are like me.

29:28 I have a lot of communities, whether I'm in that are solarpreneurs that are salespeople. And those are fun to be in, but I'm not going to find my customers in those. I've got to go into communities where my customers are. So whether it's Slack or Discord groups or their specialized forums online or even particular groups in your business community, start looking for those organizations where your customers are not where people are just like you.

29:58 So be the rare person at that group. That's not one of them, right? But it's somebody who provides services and product to that group. Yeah, it's like LinkedIn groups when they were popular. You can either contribute to the group or you can learn from a different group. So there's two different groups. We can contribute, be a value or we can learn and we can be a student. All right. A couple of the key takeaways. Number one, quantity, quality over quantity. You're not sending out blast to everybody. You're getting very specific about who you want to talk to.

30:35 And then you have an organized campaign and program over time where you're going to build a relationship over time. Don't have a list of a thousand. You can handle it. Have a list of 100 to 200 people that you're going to try to build that relationship. And if you find that one of them falls off out of the side, then put somebody else in there and continue to work on that. Timing matters. If you can find out any way where they're searching, like when they go on to your website or when they go on to, they're looking at particular topics in the marketplace. Those are the people that you want to talk to. So use the tools that are online to be able to do that. And then it's human plus digital. That's the third one is human.

31:18 Human touch, but the digital helper. So don't just rely on digital. Listen, I get, I can't stand it when I hook up with somebody on LinkedIn. And then I just start getting the series of messages from them that are all generic. Hey, I saw you when you're really great and you're really neat person. And I just really want to relate to you. And now the new thing is, Hey, do you go hunting? Are you going to the beach? Like it's a per, you know, it's like, you know, I don't want to give me.

31:51 What's my value? Find some value to give me. And just your generic message is not valuable to me. So thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, Scott. Yeah. Yeah. I really admire how you run the Minnesota Sales Institute. Well, thank you very much. I've never met you before and I don't know what you're looking at. Right. It's just like it gets so noisy. And it's like you've got to almost report and block some people as I get out of my world. You're taking and wasting my time.

32:16 Right. So that's the balance we're trying to find, isn't it? Yeah. What are we doing differently? That's not just what everyone else is doing. That's going to build that relationship. And the other thing you have to realize is you're not going to catch with 90% of that list of 200. You get good 20 of them. Then, and you'll have a chance to grow your business. So just like all prospecting, you're not going to get 90% of them. You're going to get 10, 10, maybe 20 if you're doing the right things. So really prospect well.

32:48 Yeah. Go out and start more conversations and learn from the conversations and you're going to become a lot more specific and targeted in who you have conversations with. Okay. A couple of resources we're going to have out there. Number one, check out mnsales.com. Offer. So go to mnsales.com slash offers. And then on our show page, we're going to have a document creative B2B prospecting ideas that you can just pull off in case you didn't catch some of the things we talked about.

33:16 So our golden nugget today is in a crowded marketplace, fitting in is failing in a busy marketplace, not standing out is the same as being invisible by Seth Godin who wrote the purple cow. Yes, I have the purple cow. I've never read the purple cow. Maybe we should read it. Huh? Yeah. Okay. Go to winning at selling.com. All the information is going to be there in our show notes. We'll have a link to the offers page. We'll also have that document that I mentioned.

33:44 This is episode 691. Next week, our topic is how to close on the first appointment and we'll be reading a lining strategy in sales by Frank Sesipa, chapter seven. So please subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues on your social media networks. We'd be grateful for a five star review and post a favorable comment. If not favorable, please tell us directly. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.