Special Guest Dr. Chris Croner

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winnie of Selling Podcast. I'm Professor Scott Plumb of the Minnesota Sales Institute, and with me is Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems. Together, we launched Franchise Sales Pro, with the commitment to work with franchise owners and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. Few business challenges are more painful than hiring a sales person, who interviews well, but fails to deliver.

0:28 A poor producer can cost your company six to seven figures annually in salary, training, lost customers, and missed opportunities. While most sales leaders say they want reps with fire in the belly, if you know how to identify it reliably. In this episode, we reveal the proven scientific formula, the three non-teachable traits that define top-hunter salespeople. You'll learn how to spot these traits in your candidates before hiring, so you can build a team of true producers, not pretenders.

0:57 So, pay heed! Scott and I welcome author and researcher, Dr. Chris Kroner, to reveal how you will never hire a bad sales person again, on episode 693 of the Winnie at Selling Podcast. Thanks, Bill. Look forward to that conversation. And before we meet Chris, we're going to skip the book club today. We are doing the book, Aligning Strategy with Sales by Frank Sespidis, Part Two, and we're going to be covering chapters eight.

1:27 That's next week, right? Yeah, next week. Yeah. Before we welcome our guest, I want to share a brief announcement. Do you have the right people on the bus and in the right seats? That's always the first step before investing in training, because sometimes it's not about more training, it's about finding the right people first. If you're looking to build your team in 2026 to bring in folks that can hit your activity goals and drive the results you want, it might be time to talk to a recruiter.

1:54 Just head over to mnsales.com slash offers and check the box, and we'll connect you with a professional recruiter. There's no obligation, just a conversation. And if you'd like us to introduce you to someone who can find the right candidates for your team, fill out the short form and we'll be in touch. Invest in your people, invest in your future. That's mnsales.com slash offers today. Thank you, Scott. So we have got a great guest today.

2:20 Dr. Chris, this is a long intro. He gave me three pages of intro, but I'm only going to read a couple paragraphs. So, you know, these guys, these professionals, they were loaded. Dr. Chris Kroner is a principal with Sales Drive LLC, a firm that specializes in the selection and development of high performing salespeople. Dr. Kroner is co-author of the book, Never Hire a Bad Sales Person Again, which is also the title for the podcast today, detailing his research and practice in identifying the non-teachable personality traits common to top producers.

2:52 Chris developed the proprietary drive test assessment and the drive interview for Sales Person Selection. Using the system, he's helped over 1,500 companies worldwide to hire and develop top performing salespeople. He has served as an adjunct faculty member at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, teaching personal selection in the Industrial Psychology Master of Arts program. God, this is fascinating. Chris, welcome to the Winning at Selling podcast.

3:19 Mr. Hokeham, Professor Plum, thank you so much for the opportunity to be of service to you and to your audience and very much appreciate it. Well, they say Mr. Hokeham was my dad. I don't know if we ever get used to that, right? So, well, thank you. You're so nice to me. Yeah, that's gonna be fun. This is gonna be fun. You know, the opening target about how much money we can lose by hiring the wrong person. And it seems these days, we can't get rid of them either, right?

3:48 So I've been in situations where we've hired that bad person and everyone's afraid to fire them because they wanna sue or they wanna, you know, claim that they were. So a lot of can of worms did not hire the right person. So I can't wait to hear what you gotta say, but let's start with these characteristics of this Hunter salesperson. Scott and I have talked about that kind of idea before, but be curious to see from your standpoint, what does this person look like?

4:14 Sure, well, there are really three key non-teachables that we found and by the way of background, got started over 20 years ago now. Researching, everything that had been published on this topic academically, that's the basis of the research that we did, everything that have been published on the idea of what is that makes a successful salesperson. And at the same time, I was working in terms of interviewing at a firm that focused on leadership development and I was interviewing sales candidates and then circling back with their managers, they were after to find out who really does become successful.

4:46 And when I looked at all of that data, I found that again, many of the classic characteristics that people think would be important are still important teachable things, like again, relationship skills, organization, persuasiveness, but time and again, there are these three non-teachable characteristics that are standing out to differentiate the highest performance. The first one is what we call the need for achievement.

5:07 And when we talk about the need for achievement in a salesperson, we're talking about the person who wants to do well, simply for the sake of doing well. So that salesperson who's high in need for achievement, they just naturally want to set the bar high, if you will, they want to jump over that, then they want to set it even higher again the next time. So they're constantly focused on producing excellence, simply for the sake of excellence.

5:32 Think of, for example, the kid in school who just has to get an A, the person who's going to be an effective entrepreneur who has to get up every morning and make it happen and there's nobody standing over them watching them. So that's the first piece need for achievement. The second piece is competitiveness. And the competitive salesperson we find really wants to do two things. Number one, they want to be the best in their team.

5:52 They're always comparing their performance to their peers because they just need to know how they stack up, if you will, relative to the group. And number two, they want to win that prospect or that customer or that client over to their point. Because to them, psychologically, that sale is kind of like a contest of wills. And then the third piece is optimism. And that's the salesperson's sense of certainty that they will succeed as well as, of course, their resilience to remain persistent when they face the inevitable difficulty and challenge and rejection that a salesperson simply has to deal with.

6:25 So we find it's those three characteristics altogether, need for achievement, competitiveness, and optimism that psychologically creates sort of the perfect storm, if you will. And collectively, we refer to those three characteristics as drive. Wow, that's amazing. I love that you call them non-teachable. Scott and I've talked about this plenty of times before those character traits. We can teach people how to handle their time better, make more, take more advantage of their day, do a better sales call.

6:57 But we can't seem to be able to change people's innate behavior. And that's probably where you've done a lot of your studies. Yes, and as a trainer once said to me, if they don't have the will, I can't give them the skill. And you're exactly right. This we've been focused so hard on differentiating at the beginning. What was it that you think of all the things that someone would classically say is important for a salesperson?

7:18 Oh, I want somebody with the gift of GAB, or I want somebody who's good at relationships, or someone who likes to talk to people, or just likes people in general, or is hungry for money. All of those things are nice, but they aren't going to lead ultimately to success, particularly as a hunter. When you think about somebody who's going to be effective as a hunter, salesperson psychologically, you're looking for the person who's going to be able to go out, knock on a door, whether that door is in person or over the phone, sometimes get that door slammed in their face, and then knock on the next door, with that much more certainty and passion and conviction.

7:47 And psychologically, that's a very special person whom we're talking about. So in many cases, as you can imagine, you can kind of save someone for themselves by having them avoid, and only the company avoiding the person, but the person avoiding a career in which the psychological demands, particularly of being a hunter, are going to be a little bit too much, and are going to just make them miserable, if you will. So it's all about finding the right match on the sides.

8:07 It sounds like you're really appealing to more of an intrinsic motivation versus an extrinsic motivation in a person, and having that internal integrity to do what's right, even though nobody is watching. This is a little contrarian to the motivated by money, external extrinsic motivation. How do these need for achievement in transic motivation compete with the extrinsic motivation and the perception of money motivating salespeople?

8:34 Very good question, yes, you're exactly right. It does tend to be that intrinsic aspect of motivation that we find is most important. When it comes to that money motivation, oftentimes again, as I mentioned, the interviewer or the sales manager will think they're looking for somebody who's motivated by money. In fact, oftentimes they'll even go so far, I'm sure you've seen the look for salespeople who have, say, a mortgage, a couple of car payments, kids in school, or they'll encourage them, talk to someone a week ago who said that they were actually encouraged early in their career to take on as much debt as possible, really to kind of establish that leverage

9:03 over the person, if you will. The challenge though, when you have someone who's motivated by money or motivated by those external factors, we find they tend to get up to a certain level of production and then they level off. We talk about this in our book, we call them the flatliners, if you will. Oftentimes again, when the person's motivated by those external factors, they reach that level, they reach the lifestyle they're really going after and now they know what they need to phone and if you will, order after court of the maintain.

9:28 Whereas the person motivated by need for achievement that intrinsic motivation, they will, to be sure, continue to excel, they'll continue to produce. Money is still important to them, but they look at money the same way that say a great athlete looks at points on the scoreboard. It's how they show how well they've done rather than their goal in and of itself. And I know you've had other guests who have echoed that as well in terms of their own experience.

9:51 And that's what we find is that key distinction, money's important, but it's really how they show how well they've done rather than their goal in and of itself, if that makes sense. Yeah, is that flatlining? Does that come from maybe this idea I'm making more than I ever thought I would make or I'm doing so much better than my dad did and therefore I can't even imagine myself going higher than that. Is that some of the psychology that's going into this?

10:15 It certainly can in some cases. Particular persons, extra satisfied with themselves in terms of what they've accomplished. If they've decided I just wanna be motivated by money, I wanna make a lot of it. And I've reached a level where I've satisfied that criterion in my own mind, then the person's just gonna be content, if you will, at that particular level. Because that was their focus to begin with. Their focus was on that external motivation as opposed to the intrinsic motivation when they're more intrinsically motivated, particularly of the three elements that need for achievement, which by the way we find is the most important of the three.

10:48 Again, if they wanna continue to do well for its own sake, for example, you wouldn't hear about a kid in school that said, you know, I just got too many A's. I just got too many A's in the report. No, they wouldn't think about it that way. I never said that. I never, ever, I said, hey, I gotta see, that was pretty good. I never saw that. Let me throw out another misconception. Is there a difference between the introverts and the extroverts?

11:13 I think that people think that extroverts are better salespeople. When I think in reality that introverts are better salespeople, can you talk a little bit about that contradiction? You're exactly right. That's a common misconception. Companies will think, okay, we need somebody who's gonna be an extrovert, who has the gift of GAB, as I mentioned, or enjoys reaching out to people. That's certainly helpful, but that's a teachable characteristic.

11:31 We refer to that as relationship skills. One of the fallacies they'll get into in the interview process or in the hiring process is they'll focus on, well, let's find someone who would say, just the captain of the football team or someone who was head of the fraternity or sorority, and we'll get the person who's surely that relationship ability that they have will carry the day again and again. Well, again, that is orthogonal in many cases to the person being an effective high drive individual, particularly with that need for achievement.

12:00 Sure, the relationship skills can be very helpful, but that's something you can teach. Oftentimes you're better off getting the person who was focused on maybe they didn't have all of those social goals when they were in school, but they were quietly, they had what we might call quiet drive. They were working their way through college. They were working at a cafe somewhere. They were just doing all they could, maybe in a quiet way, to accomplish all of the goals that they ultimately wanted to do and again, they still have that high need for achievement.

12:25 So absolutely, someone who is more of an introvert can certainly be very successful as a salesperson, in some cases, much more successful because they're not content just to have a bunch of relationship calls. They want to focus on achievement in and of itself. So you're exactly right. Well, what are some of the things that sales managers should not look for? Or what are some of the things that hold salespeople back? If we've got achievement as not being number one, what are some of the greatest weaknesses within salespeople when it comes to interviewing?

12:53 And I think every conversation a salesperson has somebody selling something and somebody's buying something. And sometimes salespeople sell themselves on interviews very, very well. They get past the probationary period and now reality starts to set in. So what are some of the things to look for and not hiring a salesperson? Sure. So in terms of the interview process, you're exactly right. The salesperson can do a very good job of coming across very effectively in the interview.

13:16 And that's where so many people get tripped up because they'll sit across from that candidate who seems to be saying all the right things and they're thinking, okay, great. Finally, the calories here, I found my hundred sales person. Surely this person is going to turn it on the same way when we bring them on board. But oftentimes that's not the case. So during the interview process, the most important predictor of future success is previous success.

13:38 So the most important predictor of future behavior is previous behavior. So during the interview, we want to establish the person's previous behavior at work that reflects the characteristics that we would like for them to show for us going forward. So similar to, as you have talked about in the past, when you're hiring a salesperson, the first step, of course, is to identify the characteristics that you're looking for.

13:57 And then to develop questions, specific questions that go after what the person has done previously at work that reflects those characteristics. So in a simplistic way, for example, if we're looking at organization, asking the candidate, when was a time when organization was particularly important for you? And then just listening to that person, keeping in mind we can teach organization, of course, but that's still helpful to understand what is the person done in the past at work that reflects those characteristics.

14:20 And one of the ways that we can keep the salesperson on track is to have all of our questions written out ahead of time. I always encourage our clients to do that. And of course, we've got interview questions that come with our book, a full interview guide that gets you ahead to the interview, gets you ready to go in terms of all the questions that you need. When you have those ahead of time, you're not getting stuck up and the person is not taking the opportunity to filibuster you.

14:43 So to keep following up on Scott's line of questioning here, is there something that we can look for in people's past? You said their past behavior is identified in their future, right? So good athletes, we said the good talker isn't. And Scott and I know that we make fun of the good talker all the time. You've mentioned A students. I think A students sometimes are only good at following orders and not always good at getting things done.

15:10 I've always heard A students teach and B students work for C students. So what do we look for if we're just looking at resumes first so we can kind of, is there anything we can kind of put our hands around or is it just, we can't really tell that success unless we go deeper? Great question. So starting out at the resume level, yes, we've had some clients for almost every single person they assess scores high-end drive and I'm asked them in the past, what are you looking for?

15:38 Say in terms of say a resume or the screening process and typically they'll say they look for three different things. Number one, of course, they look for the person who's more of the passive candidate than the active candidate because if the person's been actively out there looking of course for a while in the world of sales, there can be a good reason for it. Number two, they look for the person who's not a job hopper.

15:55 So of course they have some longevity in the positions they fell now of course directly out of school looking at the person a little bit of a lead way to find their ship legs career-wise, maybe one or two positions where there's less tenure. But then thereafter, we wanna make sure that we're seeing some things substantial because if they've been at every single position, they've been in the past one year, one year, one year, chances are that's gonna emerge for us going forward as well.

16:15 And the third thing we look for is the person is able to provide some sort of metrics to show that they have been successful previously. Those three things altogether, again, more of the person who's more of the passive candidate than the active candidate, the person who is not a job hopper and who is able to provide some metrics to show they've done well in the past. Those things tend to, again, not a perfect correlation, but they do tend to predict high drive, if you will.

16:37 So what is the most effective way to test for this drive in sales candidates? Sure, in terms of an assessment and online assessment, there are many online assessments that go after these characteristics. We recommend using one constructed in the way that we've done with ours that uses a format called forced choice. So of course, one of the keys is to go after the three non-teachables, need for achievement, competitiveness, and optimism.

16:59 But the way you do that, as you can imagine, is important as well. So for example, if a candidate is taking an assessment, generally, particularly a sales candidate, typically we find that they can be fairly skill-hole at figuring out, as you can imagine, what the questions are really looking for and faking their way through it. So for example, if a test question says something like, I consider myself very persuasive, true or false?

17:20 Well, again, most candidates are going to want to say, well, of course, that's true of me. They want to get that job. So we recommend using a question format called forced choice, which is designed to eliminate faking. So the way a forced choice question works is, for each question, the person gets a series of three statements, all of which are worded very positively. So a forced choice question might say something like, I consider myself a strong leader, I have great relationship skills, I'm very persuasive.

17:49 Okay, now which of these is most like you and which one is least like you? So of course, that then forces the candidate to make some very difficult distinctions. But then it gives us a much better sense of their real priorities. Yeah, it was assessments that make me talk, think too much. Yes, well, we always encourage them. I want to, I take tests very fast. Of course, and that's really ideal is not to overthink the questions because again, you're looking at it from the perspective of course, of a hiring manager, you want to make sure that the person you're sitting across is not going to be the person who's going to be skillful at kind of BSing you, if you will.

18:23 So that's what I'm starting to tell. So this is how long it takes them to do the assessment, come into any play then? It doesn't typically we find in terms of our assessment, it typically takes between 15 and 20 minutes. So it's very candid, friendly, we don't, timely candid. If they rush the assessment, however, generally that ends up resulting in an inconsistent score. And if the person does score inconsistently, there's always a note on the report that indicates that.

18:45 There's a, you know, potentially a consistency issue here. So you always want to look at that too, is the person responding in a consistent way. So tell us what kind of success have you seen as you've worked with organizations. How is this drive assessment help them to pick the right people? What kind of results are you getting? We're getting strong in terms of the predictability of the assessment. So we find that, again, no assessment is going to be perfect.

19:09 But looking at just the results of the assessment in particularly with our clients who do subscriptions, who are testing sometimes hundreds of sales candidates per year, we find it's about 80% just looking at the assessment by itself, predictability. But you take that to the next level of course by remembering it's only one piece in the interview process. It's not the entire process. It's only one piece of data. So when you combine the assessment, as you can imagine, with a well constructed behavioral interview, that's when you take it to the next level.

19:35 The well constructed test is like the X-Ray. Allows us to determine, aha, there's something here. Within the well constructed behavioral interview, there are actors like the CAT scan. That's what we dig down to even really understand what's going underneath the surface and what makes that person tick. But from the perspective of the assessment itself, we're very proud of the results that we received, particularly on a website like GT, which looks at SAS assessments.

19:56 And we've gotten strong reviews across the board from our clients who have used it in the past. So we're very proud to have been of such service to them. Again, particularly when they come to us, frustrated thinking they can't find someone who has, who's going to be successful in sales. So they've sort of resigned themselves to a churn and burn philosophy when they don't have to do that. It doesn't have to be that way.

20:16 You can use a consistent process from the resume review to the assessment to the interview. And then of course, with the onboarding process, making sure that we're getting the person started and geared up for success, if you will. There is a consistent process you can use. And we're proud of the results that we consistently get with our clients and we document those on our website as well in case studies. In all the data that you've collected, and this is going to be like two questions in one, have you seen any changing in people's behavior since COVID?

20:46 And I'm going to give you the second part. Do you see any difference in the different generations? We've got the baby boomers and the X and Ys and the Zs. And are you seeing any difference there as you have all these people taking these assessments? Good question. So in terms of the assessment itself, we haven't seen much difference actually in terms of traits because we're looking at stable traits that identify or differentiate one person from another.

21:13 So we haven't seen, for example, a large shift generation in terms of the results that we receive on the assessment. It tends to be a bell curve. The majority of the people will score a three and you have some, as you can imagine, some twos and some fors and some fors and some vibes on either side. So we haven't seen that shift much. However, you do see generational shifts in terms of things like the other aspects of the interview process.

21:36 So things like the resume, things like scheduling the interview, sometimes responses to questions will change, but deep down underneath the surface, we still find there are those high drive people out there. It really comes down to the way the person is wired at birth and the wiring at birth doesn't change, but then there's how the person's held accountable for their behavior over time. And yes, of course, as things like smartphones have proliferated, it's grown more and more challenging for parents to hold their children accountable.

22:02 And that's one of the things that we're gonna be working on over the next year or two is looking at, okay, let's look at driving everybody. That's likely gonna be the next book that we're gonna produce. How do we look at driving everybody? How do you raise somebody who's high in those characteristics, if you will? So we have seen generational shifts on those ancillary things, but in terms of the assessment itself and the existence or the commonality of those traits, those are still out there.

22:26 It's just a matter of adjusting our process, if you will, around the assessment to find those types of individuals, to reach out to the right types of people, to know who to look for and then set our expectations as we bring the person on board, because each person's gonna come from a different generation, and that's gonna have implications to the way that they like to work with other people. I've heard you guys talk in your podcast before about someone who's from, say for example, Generation Z, will have a different preference in terms of the way that they interact with people.

22:52 Sometimes they'll say, oh, they don't like to interact with someone over the phone or they don't like to interact with them one on one. Well, they need to learn that, in particular, if someone high in need for achievement, again, as I mentioned, they could like the kid in school who has to get an A, that's why we look for that, is the person who has that attitude tends to be more of a sponge. So if they have things about themselves that are getting in the way of communicating with say someone from an older generation, and that's brought to their attention, they'll do what they need to do to adjust and fix it.

23:16 But then you were exactly right before when you said somebody who's good at school is oftentimes just good at taking orders. In some cases, is that gonna be enough? No, it's not. That's why you have the next couple of pieces. That's why you add that competitiveness piece, and then you add that optimism piece, and you put those three together. One is fine, but it's never sufficient, so I was kind of biting those three together.

23:33 Probably longer answer than you one. The one thing that I was thinking of as you were sharing that is, is there a difference between relationship sales and transactional sales when it comes to salespeople, and how does your assessment identify that? Oh, good question. So in terms of the difference between relationship sales and transactional sales, we don't go after that with the assessment itself, simply because we work with so many companies that use it to really focus on those non-teachable traits, and then they consider oftentimes that distinction between relationship sales and transactional sales as something they'll go after with what we call looking at the specialized skills.

24:10 So I've heard you guys talk about the importance of identifying characteristics up front that lead somebody to be successful in sales, particularly looking at the different roles the person might play. And we have a guide in our book that guides you through, what are the different roles the person might play? See, not only the distinction between hunter and farmer, but also a short-term sale versus a long-term sale. How long is that cycle?

24:30 Are they individual? Are they team-based? Is that sale more relationship-oriented or is it more transactional? And when you identify those, now you can look at, okay, drive is important, it's like the foundation of the house. Okay, great. But now we need to look at, how is this person gonna operate differently based upon the fact that the sale may be more transactional or more relationship-based? If it's more transactional, oftentimes then we don't need to worry as much about say things like deeper relationship skills or even things like the person's in an intellectual depth.

25:00 For example, something like problem-solving skills or a conceptual skill or analytical skill, if it's more transactional. However, if it's more relational, particularly if it's more of a solution sale, then we do need somebody who's gonna be strong in problem-solving, who's gonna have good analytical ability, good conceptual skill. And in that case, I would recommend not only covering those types of characteristics in the interview.

25:20 And of course, we give you questions to go after that. But then also looking at some sort of assessments in intellectual horsepower that you made in that case. And there are many great assessments out there in that regard too. Let me follow up with one more. When a salesperson gets rejected because they didn't do well in your assessment, can they change? Can they improve? How do they change and improve to be able to really concentrate on the success attributes that you identify?

25:43 Good question. So when we look at the assessment, I never like to think of it as the person's successful, unsuccessful in terms of the assessment itself, we're really kind of looking at their preferences, their behavior at work. And at the end of the day, we wanna make sure that the match is right between the position and that person. We don't wanna put the person in the role and then only is the company gonna be miserable, but they're gonna be miserable with the demands that are putting them.

26:06 So we can't do much to change drive. So if you're had somebody who is scoring lower in drive or probably putting them into a role where they have to knock on the door, as I mentioned, get it slammed in the face and knock on the next door, they are gonna enjoy that as much, particularly over the long term. However, someone who scores low in drive who perhaps scores stronger and say relationship skills or organizational skills might be fantastic.

26:26 Say for example, in a customer service role, whether they're just dealing with existing accounts, they might do fine in that sort of position. If there may be lower in relationship skills and they want to improve, that's something they can certainly develop and we always give our client suggestions in terms of the assessment results and things that they can do to mentor or motivate that person, given those teachable characteristics.

26:45 So they can certainly work on things like relationship skills, persuasiveness. If they need to develop organization, they can work on that, those sorts of characteristics. But past the age of 21, 22, we find there's not much that they're really gonna do to change their overall level of driving. In the short term, they might be able to do well in a huntable, particularly as we mentioned, if they're kinda under the gun in terms of say, needing to make money really, really fast but are in some sort of a competition.

27:09 Put over the long term in terms of enjoying that type of a position. And again, at the end of the day, it's about making sure the match is right on both sides. And in many cases, you can kinda save somebody from themselves. They really don't know that they're gonna be miserable in that type of a role. So focusing them more on a position where they might be a better match, like for example, customer service, they might do just fine.

27:26 Does your assessment mesh well with any particular sales process like challenger or spin or any of the different sales processes? Scott and I are very solution oriented in our selling process. But we're kinda looking and I think this prompted his question. We're working with a lot more companies that are doing B2C that need to close right away. So it's kind of a different sales process. But do you see, have you hit upon sales processes that are different from what your drive process or assessment shows would work well?

28:05 Good question. We have not. So we haven't seen that. We haven't seen a difference in terms of different sales processes. I know Neil Rackman is spinsling. Yeah, he attended one of my presentations with a selling power magazine many years ago at the opportunity to meet him. We haven't seen much difference in terms of the process itself. The process is great for providing structure. Again, that's one of the reasons that we look for the person to high and need for achievement.

28:29 Because as you can imagine, the person high and need for achievement, like again, like the kid in school who asked to get an A, you show that person a structure whereby they can become successful. They'll be the sort of person who tends to be, we find kind of that sponge, if you will. And we want to absorb that and use it. But that's really the key. If I had to look at any of the characteristics that we look at and marry it with a person's ability to follow a structure, it'd be that need for a achievement piece.

28:51 Wow, great stuff. And just for our listeners, we are working with Chris on the assessment. So if you're interested in taking the assessment, you can go to our website, mnsales.com slash offers. And we'll be in touch with you on how to do that. One question that I like to ask everybody that we have on the show is, what book or author or person has had the greatest impact on your life or career? Hmm, what book or author?

29:16 I would say, if I had to pick one, probably Victor Frenkel, Man's Search for Me. Oh, for meaning, yeah. If I could pick out one book. Classic, we went to the classics. Yeah, that I would take with me on a desert island, if you will, it would be that. Because it, not only on the personal side, but also in terms of career, you become what you think about as your own Nightingale said. And it's all about that, the person who has a vision for the future, who thinks things are going to go well.

29:44 That the person's thoughts, your thoughts influence, your actions, your actions and influence the results that you get in your life. So if I could take one book that would encompass sort of everything, it would be that one. I think he calls that logo therapy or logos. Yes, yes. What I took away from that book and I read in high school is that there's two types of people in this world. There's decent and indecent people.

30:05 And then as I got older, I found out that there's two types of people. There's ones that like Neil Diamond, there's ones that don't like Neil Diamond. Ha ha ha ha ha. We're not sure where the axis crosses on that.

30:17 Yeah, Caroline. Do you think you wanted to add, Bill, before we start to close it up? I'm just trying to think of any evil people like Neil Diamond. It just might not be. And don't think they do it. I'd be the test. Neil is still with us, Neil is still with us. All right. Well, Chris has just wanted to ask if there's any resources, offers, anything that we can connect our listeners to on our show page. Well, of course, if you've got the information on your website relative to the drive test, that's absolutely fine.

30:42 Of course, we have that on ours as well. I guess if I could leave your listeners with just one thing, it would be that when you combine a well-constructed assessment with the interview questions that we talked about today, you'll absolutely stack your team, you know, with championship caliber high-performance sales athlete. So it's all about putting that process together for yourself. And again, it's a pleasure to be of service to you and to your listeners anyway that I can't never hesitate to reach out.

31:06 It's salesdrive.info. That's our website. All right, well, we'll connect you on that. And thank you so much. And from people who do training, it's a lot more pleasant to do training for people who actually care about what they're doing. So the people with driver, we can usually identify them sometimes in our training. Scott, let's wrap it up with your golden nugget. Our golden nugget today is never hire someone who knows less than you do about what they're hired to do by Malcolm Forbes.

31:33 And I thought that really kind of cut to the essence of our topic today. I don't know if it was Henry Ford or Carnegie that said, I surround myself with people who know more about things than I do. So that's what leadership is. Great, great quote. Thanks, Scott. Everything that we talked about today will be at winning at selling.com, connection to Chris there and on his website. This is episode 693, winning at selling.com.

32:00 Next week, again, we're going to be finishing on the topic, how to close on the first appointment part two. We got so far into it two weeks ago. And it was such a great topic, but we decided to break it up into two halves. So we'll be finishing up that. And then the book, we're going to be picking up the book, Aligning Strategy and Sales by Frank Sesipharis. We'll be covering chapters eight. So please subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues on your social media network.

32:24 We'd be grateful for a five star review and post a favorable comment. If not favorable, please contact us directly. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.