Special Guest – Paul Boehnke

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling Podcast. I'm Bill Hellkamp of Reast Development Systems, and with me is Professor Scott Plomb of the Minnesota Sales Institute. And together we have launched Franchise Sales Pro with a commitment to work with franchise owners and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. What if the biggest obstacle standing between you and your sales goals isn't your product, your price, or your prospects?

0:29 With a voice inside your head, negative self-talk silently sabotages even the most skilled sales people creating doubt, hesitation, and missed opportunities. In this episode, we explore how your inner dialogue directly impacts your sales performance and discover the thoughts on demand framework, a proven method for breaking free from self-limiting beliefs. So join Bill and me as we welcome author and certified business coach Paul vankey as he tells us why your biggest objection may be in your head on episode 696 of the Winning and Selling Podcast.

1:05 All right, in order to give Paul the most time, we're not going to do our book club this week, but next week aligning strategy and sales, we're going to go into chapter 10 as we come to the close of that book, Scott. Before we welcome our guest, let me give you an announcement. Have you ever thought about running your own business? A franchise might be the perfect way to make your dream a reality. Think of it as a business in a box with proven systems, brand recognition, and built in support.

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2:12 Thanks Bill. Today's guest is a sought after speaker, author, and certified business and personal coach. He works with solo entrepreneurs to overcome a negative self-talk that hinders their business growth. He's trying to find greater impact, make more money, and have more fun. As a classical musician, Paul Banki stumbled on a unique process that not only helped his performance but could easily be applied to taming that negative thoughts in your own inner critic.

2:40 Then he realized this process not only works for him but works for everyone, musician or not. We're looking forward to a wide ranging discussion including inspiration from his book Thoughts On Demand. Turn negative self-talk into unstoppable confidence. Paul, welcome to the Winning and Selling Podcast. Oh, thank you, Scott, and Bill. It's great to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation. How's it going to be here, Paul?

3:03 Let's kick it off with this Thoughts On Demand framework. I think everybody's wondering what does that mean? Could you give us an overview of that? Well, sure. I mean, the title Thoughts On Demand is sort of the idea. How do we get our brain to think what we needed it, what we want or need it to think and to do that on demand. And basically, this arose out of my experience as a performing musician. How, of course, being on stage, I needed the support from my mind and I needed it to think certain things at certain times, whether I felt like it or not.

3:36 And so there were certain tools and techniques I learned to sort of train my brain into habitual thoughts. And at a later time, I thought, you know, this could be useful in other ways. I could train some other thoughts in my mind as well. And the only question then became what are those thoughts that I'm going to be training my mind to think. And so that's when, you know, as I became a coach and left my full-time work as a musician, I began thinking more about what is it that goes on in our mind that is helpful?

4:06 What is it that goes on in our mind that's not helpful? And how do we turn the unhelpful ones into helpful ones? The basic framework, which I think is what you were asking, is basically four phases. One is to simply recognize that all the thoughts that we have in our head, they are just thoughts. They're not who we are. They're just electrochemical signals in our brain. And just this realization, this can often relieve a lot of the pressure that we feel when we think these negative thoughts, because we have this tendency to identify with them, to think that this is who I am.

4:44 But when we realize these are just thoughts that releases some of that pressure. The second phase is then to sort of look a little more in depth at those thoughts. And what we'll discover is that they're actually not true. These thoughts are telling us lies of one sort or another. And when we uncover what those lies are, not only do we release more of our grip on them, but we begin to sort of figure out, oh, this is sort of at the root of the stories that I'm telling myself.

5:17 And they're not even true. Once we've uncovered that we move into the third phase, which is to, well, create a new message that you want to hear. We base this message on what we uncovered in that second phase of what's this lie, what's really at the root of what I'm telling myself. What we create a new message that, well, doesn't create an argument, which just keeps the old message alive. And once we've got a new powerful message that really excites our emotions, that feels really great when we think it, well, then we use those skills I learned as a musician to practice those thoughts so that they become a habit.

5:57 They become your sort of new default way of being and believing. And so in a nutshell, that's the thoughts on demand framework that I work with. Well, obviously, Paul, that is a great framework and speaking positively to ourselves, focusing on it. I love the idea of practicing that. We work with salespeople. This is a podcast for salespeople. What do you see as you've been talking with people? What are some of the most common forms of negative self talk that salespeople do?

6:28 How does it affect their sales process? I know they're really good at lying to their sales managers. That's a skill that you have to really get into. But how are we lying to ourselves? Well, it's interesting.

6:39 I think the most common things that salespeople experience are actually the most common ones, all of us experience. It just has different effects in our lives, depending on what we do. And I think maybe the four most common things that people experience are procrastination, perfectionism, imposter syndrome, and then either worry or anxiety, sort of, depending on how we think about it. And of course, if we think about procrastination, well, what's that going to do to a salesperson?

7:08 Well, they're not going to be making those phone calls. They're not going to be working on that proposal. They're not going to do whatever it is that may move a sale forward. Perfectionism, how might that show up for people? Well, I've got to make this proposal absolutely perfect before. And I can show this to someone. That would be one idea. Or I have to have the perfectly crafted conversation. Or whatever it is, we tend to sort of work on making something perfect before we let it out into the wild, which of course means we never get out into the wild because we never make it perfect.

7:45 Imposter syndrome shows up. Some people sort of feel like any success they have is just a fluke that it's not due to any inherent skills or knowledge or abilities that they have. And if a salesperson is showing up feeling like an imposter, that's going to sort of come across to the people they're talking. And I can imagine it would bring up some level of mistrust or confusion about who this person really is because that person isn't sure about it either.

8:15 Or of course, worry or anxiety. I really need this sale. This is going to be really important to me. And that's sort of pressure that we put on ourselves and the sale that also comes off in a way that doesn't build trust, that doesn't open things up and make us flexible salespeople. So those, I would say, are the four most common that I see. There's probably only about 700 or 800 that probably show up. But those are probably the most common.

8:47 And taking that a step further, we've got the impact of those attributes. What have you seen as kind of the cost or the damage to the salesperson's performance or the relationship that they have with prospects? How is that kind of manifest if they don't get it corrected? Well, these beliefs that we have, they end up running our entire life, all of our relationships, relationships with people, relationships with money, relationships with our job.

9:16 They kinder how we show up. And that's just going to be causing problems in all sorts of ways. I mean, here's simply an example of how it showed up for one person. And this one person happens to be me. Here's experience of my own life. Early on in my work, when I was especially hungry for a sale, I had a call with a potential client. I was so hungry that I was willing to try and sort of make myself be whatever he seemed to want me to be.

9:50 And the story at the bottom of that was that if I was just myself and representing what I'm good at, that that wouldn't be good enough for this potential client. It felt more important to be what he wanted me to be, than to be what I really was. And the outcome, of course, is that, well, this made it difficult for this other person to get a clear grip on who I was, which of course made it hard to build trust. And instead of feeling reassured that I could help with this problem, it just spilled more confusion, more doubt.

10:24 Needless to say, I did not close this sale. That's the kind of thing that I think frequently happens for people. Yeah, I think when we try to pretend to be someone that we're not, then we sometimes say, which, who did I pretend to be with this customer? And who am I today? And so that authenticity can be important. But what is it about our worry and our procrastination and our self, bad self talk that causes us to try and be everything to everybody?

10:54 Well, I think at the root, at the root of virtually all these inner critic messages, shall we call them? Is this question of whether we are worthy? If we really dig down, dig down, dig down underneath all those lies, we usually end up with some belief that we're not good enough in some manner, one way or another. We're just not good enough. And of course, we then work really hard to prove that that's not true because there's something deep inside our soul that that just doesn't quite sit right with.

11:29 It's like, I'm not worthy. This doesn't make sense. So I will work hard to try to prove to everyone else and probably more importantly to myself that I am worthy. So we go through all sorts of strange, chirations and things that are really kind of confusing to those around us to try to prove this fact. But the problem is we can't prove that we are worthy. In my own belief, I think worth is something that is just something that we are.

12:03 We are worthy by definition because we are. And worthiness, I believe, is sort of beyond the whole idea of provability. And so there's a lie there that tells us that we have to prove our worth when that's not the case. But we try very hard to do that. And of course, we can never succeed because the bar is always raised. There's always something that's not quite right. But when we can simply accept the fact that who we are is worthy, that changes the color of everything in our life.

12:43 And we start showing up differently. We start showing up more authentically. We show up with more confidence. We don't find ourselves doing all those things like procrastinating or feeling like an imposter or worrying because we realize everything is as it needs to be. And all I need to do is keep moving forward. Well, building on that, I think a lot of salespeople struggle with a high need for approval. They kind of go into those appointments wanting to be liked versus striving to be respected.

13:13 Any advice you can give our listeners as to how do they kind of deal with this high need for approval and not come across as being desperate when they're talking to a prospect? Well, ultimately, of course, if you believe in your own worth, your own okayness, that is a powerful foundation for which to come from. So that's, I think, really the answer. How do you find the worth in yourself? How do you like yourself? How do you know, don't worry about what the other person thinks so much.

13:45 When you are really secure in your own sense of being, then you're not worried about what somebody else is thinking. And what I find interesting is when we're not worried about what somebody else is thinking, that we, when we show up more authentically, other people respond to us in more positive ways. People make more sales as themselves than when they're trying to be somebody else. You know, trust is such a huge thing when it comes to sales.

14:19 And we get clues so subtly from everyone around us about their trustworthiness. And when someone really believes in their own trustworthiness and their own self and their own way of being, we sense that too, regardless of the words that are being said. So that really opens us up to allow us to feel more comfortable with that person to believe more of what they are telling us. And in sales, do we believe the solution that they're offering?

14:55 When we believe the person, we believe the solution much more readily, shall we say? Does that kind of answer your question? Yeah, I think that's very helpful, for example. Another situation, I think some salespeople kind of have a rough sales manager that maybe they think doesn't like them. Is there any advice you can give our listeners on, you know, how do you deal with those feelings when you, you know, you think your sales manager doesn't like you?

15:22 Or dealing with other people that the salesperson doesn't like? How do you reach out on that? Um, again, I think it comes back to that same question. How much do you like yourself? Because there are going to be people in this world who don't like us. I mean, there's a lot of people and nobody is going to be liked by everyone. And I think when you try to be liked by someone who maybe isn't, shall we say, inclined to like you, it usually tends to annoy them more, you know?

15:59 And so I think we can't make anybody do anything. We can't make anybody else like us. We can just be us. And when we are us, this is when we find the people who are attracted to us, liking us, because they know who we are. We're not trying to put on some facade, pretend to be someone we're not. When I think about the impression that so many people in this world have about sales, it has to do with trust and does this person have their interest in mind or my interest in mind.

16:37 And we know when someone, when there's something off, when someone's not really being themselves, when someone's not being authentic, we feel it. Whether it's in the words they say or just the energy they give off. And that has such a huge effect on how we decide to interact with that person. And so when someone is simply themselves, they will bring into their life people who like them just the way they are, which builds good energy around everyone.

17:07 It ends up making more sales. You know, we don't have to make a sale to everyone. We just need to make sale to the right people who then become raging clients who love our work and tell everyone about it. We don't want to be attracting the people who feel odd about it and then sort of spread that news around either. In the long run, it's really liking yourself and not worrying about what other people are thinking. Yeah, a couple of thoughts on that, Paul.

17:37 40 years of public speaking, I've discovered that 15% of the audience is going to love me no matter what I say. 15% is going to hate me no matter what I say. And it's that other 60, 50, 60, 70% in the middle that I'm trying to influence. And if I change who I am, I just change the 15% that hate me. So it's just different. So I love that idea of authenticity and how important that is. And then a second thought that really ties into what you just talked about.

18:03 Scott and I have said, don't try too hard to get a customer who's never going to like you in the long run. You do all these things to try and please this person. And then you end up with a customer who really doesn't value what you value. And now you're fighting with them the whole time because they're not your type of customer. So I think that's really, really important for our listeners to think about. Now question for you.

18:27 You talked about 0.3 and four of your framework. 0.3 is understanding what your positive self talk should be. And then 0.4 is practicing that. So can you give us some examples of what that might be for a salesperson? Yeah, they're going into this meeting. They're not feeling real sure of themselves because they're just trying to be authentic. What are some of the things that we can say to ourselves and how can we practice that not on customers but in our everyday life?

18:53 What's the practice look like for you? Yes. So I think it's important. I'm going to backtrack a little bit. I think it's important that we include something of those earlier phases, particularly the second one. What is the core lie that I'm believing about myself? Okay. So that gives us a clue in terms of how to craft a new message that we want to believe because this really needs to come out of that root. Now for instance, let's say that the lie that we've been believing is that you're not smart enough.

19:27 Well, when I asked my clients, so what new message would you like? They almost always come up with just the opposite. Makes sense. First logical place to go. They'll come up with, well, I am smart enough. But that is certainly a better statement than you're not smart enough. But all that really does is it creates an argument in our mind between the old message and the new. And all that does is keep the old one alive. So we need to somehow address the lie that was uncovered but do it in a way that doesn't create an argument.

20:00 Let's see if I can give you an example here. I had a client who, well, she was a procrastinator. The way she procrastinated was she was procrastinating on her life. She once described herself as sort of a timid mouse, often a corner watching life go by and was afraid to sort of step out. And the message that she came up with for herself didn't actually address this idea that for her life is scary. But it's a new message that I am a warrior and I can do hard things, which is a pretty generalized kind of statement.

20:41 It's broad. If we get really specific, that's going to have a tendency to create an argument. So we do want to address the fear, the worry, the whatever it is that is underneath that lie. But we want to do it in such a general way that no argument is created. So you can't just make something up and say, well, there we go. There needs to have some level of believability about it. I will also say, however, that you can use a trick of your brain when you're having trouble finding something believable.

21:12 Part of our brain is called the reticular activating system. And part of its job is to go look for things that we say are important to us. You know, this is what happens when, say, we decide to buy a car, a certain kind of car, and also we see that car everywhere. Whereas before it wasn't. So reticular activating system say, oh, this car is important. Let me bring this to your attention. We can turn a statement into a question.

21:38 For instance, if a salesperson is wanting to believe that they are more, let's say, skilled at closing sales or something, I'm just making this up here as we go. Maybe they turn their statement into a question and say, in what ways do I show that I'm skill for it? Or what skills do I bring? And this reticular activating system starts going to look for it and it begins to bring evidence, which then makes it easier to believe.

22:09 And so you can progress along this pathway. Yes, you can't go from zeroes of 60 in a second, but you need to work your way in that direction. And so generally when we've had a negative thought going on, the way to blunt that is to have something quite general in nature. I've been kind of postponing this question, Paul, but how do you deal with the procrastination and the perfectionism? I think go hand in hand. And I think a lot of salespeople struggle with this.

22:37 What are some advice that you can give our listeners on dealing with the procrastination and the perfectionism? Well, the advice I would say is figure out what's the story that you're telling yourself that is at the root of the procrastination or the perfectionism? For instance, I had one client who was a great procrastinator and he would sit down to work on a project or create a proposal or whatever it was he was supposed to do with plenty of time to do this, but he would find himself distracted by all sorts of rabbit holes he would go down.

23:09 And of course, then all of a sudden he would be right up against the deadline having made almost no progress. And this is when the adrenaline would kick in and he would focus. He'd work all night long. He'd forget to eat dinner and, you know, just pushed it out at the very last second. And in our conversations, well, first of all, he could see how that procrastination was holding him back in his work, how it was challenging for his relationships.

23:34 He wanted to move past this that he recognized this was not a good thing. But in our conversations, we discovered that he actually loved the feeling that he had when he was suddenly working at the end. He said, when all that adrenaline is there, I feel more alive, more vital, more productive than at any time in my life. Well, who wouldn't procrastinate if you believed you needed procrastination to feel those things? Feeling those things is what was important to him.

24:06 And when we got down to that route, oh, this is why he's procrastinating because what he really wants are these feelings. Ah, okay. Now that knowledge opened up the doors of how else could we find these feelings? All of a sudden procrastination didn't seem to be a very attractive option to him. And there were all sorts of other ways he could satisfy the needs that were real for him without all the costs of procrastination.

24:33 And it's the same with perfectionism. What's at the bottom of perfectionism? I certainly am a bit of a perfectionist, maybe a bit is an understatement. And I can work and work and work and try to make things perfect. But what's really at the root of that is that fear that something's not good enough. Okay, let's get to the root. What is it that's not good enough? In my own case, the sly that I believe so much of my life was that I'm not acceptable the way I am, that I have to present myself in a way that I think will be more acceptable to other people.

25:07 So of course, it caused me not to really be as authentic as I wanted to be. But then sort of moving past that is what allowed me to open up and to be authentic, to realize I can accept myself. And when I do, I noticed other people are way more accepting of myself. Wow. Powerful words. Scott, I think you've got one more question. We're running out of time. Yeah, yeah. Boy, I'm a bit fast. So Paul, every time we have a guest on the show, I ask him what book or person has had the greatest impact on your life or career?

25:44 Oh my goodness. It's going to be hard for me to say one, one of the things I share with my clients is a list of resources that is like three or four pages long books that have been influential in my life. Two, I will mention two right now. One is called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. And the premise there is that it is possible to let in more abundance, more love, more success than we are used to having. It's a fascinating read.

26:14 I love it. I've read it four times and I think I'm about to start it on a fifth. The other one is, I believe it's called, Chalkwood Carry Water. And I'm trying to remember the name of the author. I can try to find that for you. And it's my latest favorite business building book. It doesn't actually talk about building business at all, but it talks about how do you become great at what you do? And I think so many of the lessons help us understand how to go about building a business, who we need to be, how to show up so that our business becomes successful.

26:51 It's not about the strategies that we pick, but how do we show up in a way that encourages our business to grow? Wow. Wow. Thanks, Paul. That was very insightful. Bill, do we have a golden nugget? Yeah, let's wrap it up. We have a golden nugget. I think this ties into what Paul's been talking about by Marcus Aurelius. We've quoted him before. This is you have power over your mind, not outside events. Is this and you will find strength.

27:18 You picked him before. I always pick easier authors because I cannot pronounce his last name. You can't pronounce Aurelius. But you did pronounce Benkey, right? So that's good. I did. It's easy. See, we all have skills and talents that we weren't aware of. Exactly. Given the opportunity, they come to the surface. Everything we talked about will be at winning at selling.com. So put the three W's in front of that. Or check out anywhere you download your podcast.

27:45 All of our information will be in the show notes there. Next week our book club, A Lining Strategy and Sales by Frank Cesspedes. We're finishing chapter 10. We'll do 11 and 12 the week after and that will be the end of that book. So we're wrapping that up. The topic is your comfort zone is your failure zone. Please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media. If you're so inclined, give us a five star review.

28:08 This is episode 696. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.