Do I Really Need a Mentor

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning It Selling Podcast. I'm Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems and with me is Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute. And together we've launched Franchise Sales Pro with a commitment to work with franchise oars and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. Many professionals wonder if they really need a mentor, especially when they're already working hard and doing well. But effort without an experienced guidance can slow growth, increase mistakes and limit potential. A seasoned mentor can see sharp edges, you don't, challenge use in ways that you won't and accelerate the progress you can't create alone.

0:42 If you're questioning whether now is the time, join Bill and me as we contemplate, do I really need a mentor and other evidence on Episode 698 of the Winning It Selling Podcast? Before we get into the book I have an announcement. Have you ever thought about running your own business? A franchise might be a perfect way to make that dream a reality. Think of it as a business and a box, a proven system, brand recognition with built in support. If you're a skilled technician ready to explore entrepreneurship or approaching retirement but not ready to stop contributing, owning a franchise could be your next great chapter in life.

1:20 It's a big decision with lots of moving parts and doing it alone can lead to distractions and missed opportunities. That's why we work with an experienced professional who can guide you through the franchise journey. If you'd like to talk with someone, visit mnsales.com slash offers, complete the form and we'll connect you with someone who can work with you to navigate the path of franchise ownership. First topic is a book club and a lining strategy in sales. We're finishing this up, chapters 11 and 12. I got to say Scott, as usual with most books I run out of energy at about page 150.

1:53 And this one probably want to finish it too. It's one to 300 and I feel bad because I think this is his big chapters of, you know, this is his big push on strategy in sales and I'm like, this is getting a little esoteric for me. So I have challenged a chapter 11 was pretty good. Chapter 12, I really zoned out. So I apologize to our audience on that. Chapter 11 company environment building a human and organizational capabilities. And this is all about the strategy for those who want to become a sales leader.

2:28 Mm hmm. You'll be a manager, a director of VP of sales. He lays out a great program on how to do that. I have a very good friend who parlayed his sales career and the success he had in that he became the president and CEO of a major software company here in town. And then he led them to to being purchased going public and being purchased. So he he really went the whole route right to to president CEO of the company. And he but he had the drive that put him through all four stages that Frank outlines in the book. So but before we get into his outlet, I want to talk a little bit about some of our experience Scott with people and do they really want to become a sales manager? Is it as fulfilling as they hope or is it just you know the next step?

3:20 I got to take the next step. You know if we're with that kind of I'm good at sales, I should become a sales manager. That's not the path always is it? No, it's not. And it sometimes the motivation is not productive. Is it power or is it influence? Well, sometimes just the next step. I can't just stay a sales guy forever. Well, there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, I think some people love complacency. We talked about them in the last episode. And if you get really, really good at something and you're able to really enjoy it and find joy in it and it gives you a purpose and meaning and you get rewards from it and you've got other priorities, I think that's perfectly fine. But and that's why I boiled

3:58 on to what is the motivation? Is it power or is that you want to be an influential leader? And I think that that's what he talks about a lot in this chapter. Yeah, I just think that so many of us get trapped. We get trapped in this this thing that says you need to go to the next step in order to be successful. And there's nothing wrong with being a long term, very successful sales person, having great relationships with your with your customers and your clients. And then you build a you build a reputation in the in wherever you are in that industry that says you're somebody to go to.

4:30 And I think within that sales program within becoming a very good sales person, there's enough steps within that to become a real influence in the organization and in the industry. Truly. So here's the four steps that he's got and then we'll talk about each one of these. He has a chart in there and I just put the chart in our notes. We'll talk through this chart, but he has stage one through stage four. Stage one is the helper and learner, the organizational relationship because the apprentice. So this is probably the first three or four years of being in sales.

5:06 You're trying to figure out what the heck you're doing. I can remember my early days in sales and most of my funny stories are from my first few years when I was didn't know I knew enough to talk to them, but I didn't know enough to really ask questions, drive the conversation. I was just really focused on my product knowledge. Did you take the advice of somebody that said, try to get it all on to one page and you just reduce the font size and increase the margins?

5:38 No, I guess I didn't really have any learner ship. I can remember. So this was at Radio Shack. My first three, four years were at Radio Shack, actually six years, but most of that in management. But it was just really been a good guy talking to them, having a conversation about their product and what they needed and what they wanted to do. But I really didn't have a plan. I didn't know a process. I didn't know what I was doing except being a kind listener. What do we call it? I was a good tour guide. I toured them around the store and showed them all the options and let them choose.

6:16 Right. Like a real tour goes, this is the kitchen. Okay. Thank you. You do you want me to show you the basement first? Exactly. I'll show you stuff and I'm kind of kind of looking for you to go, wow. Yeah. They have a stove. I'm listening to the spouse say, guys, I really love this house. It's like, okay, that's a good one. You know, so performance contribution on time on task supporting others. That's what he calls the performance contribution. So a lot of us are in that. I hope for many people who are in that process or listening to our show, they're learning some things from that.

6:53 They get some professional direction, which I didn't really have. I had a great manager, Craig. He was a nice guy, but he didn't know how to sell either. So we kind of sold because we had the product in stock and it was pretty and it was put on the shelves. And you know, some of our selling was because the store was neat and clean. So people wanted to come back, right? Clean, well-lided place. All right. Stage two, independent contributor, he calls this, you're a colleague and a specialist. Your role is in independence and your performance contribution is your technical expertise. So after three or four years, you've gotten smart enough to know what you're doing in sales. Now he says it's technical expertise, but I think it's more than

7:37 that. What do you think it's more than that when you're at that kind of that second level of sales? Oh, I think it starts to get into more persuasion and influential skills and to be somebody that builds that trusted advisor mentality or reputation. Yeah, so you've got to know how to fit things to what their needs are, but you've got to ask enough questions. And I think for me, it was developing a sales process and I didn't really develop that process until I got into business to business sales. When it was consumer sales, they were coming in, so they already had a need or they wouldn't be coming into my store. My store wasn't usually in a mall. So they didn't

8:18 wander in aimlessly. They came in for a reason. So when I would, my opening question is what brought you here? Good question. And they'd say, okay, I'm looking for batteries or I'm looking for this or that. And then my job was to help them find what they needed. Now I'm in business to business sales. And I've got to, and I'm out on my own because that's the independence. I'm out doing things. I'm developing my own customer base. They're not coming to me. I get a few leads, but that's not enough to live by. And I know enough about the product to connect them. But I've got to learn to ask good questions. And I've got to take them through a sales process

8:55 to help them, as you say, be persuaded. What did you learn? Where did you see yourself moving from the shell answer man to someone who really sold effectively? Well, I could study a sales process. I could pass a test on it. But I never knew that I needed to really truly follow it and apply it. And every time I got into a conversation that was outside of the sales process, I was adapted to the customer's buying process. And I kind of got wrapped up a little bit more into their feelings. And the sad part of that is that I became more empathetic to them instead of challenging them. If we don't challenge them, we don't change them. And that was my problem.

9:35 When I started off, I struggled with a high need for approval. So I wanted to be liked. So what did you see the change? When I wasn't getting the results that I wanted, and I started getting a little bit more assertive, which is different than aggressive. And when I started becoming more assertive, and I started challenging them more, I felt that I got greater respect from them because they saw more value in the conversations. Then I got better results.

10:01 Good. All right. Stage three contribute through others, manager and team leader. So I found myself this role one time. Role adjustment, assuming responsibility for others, relationships and best practices, your performance contribution. So when I was with another training organization, I started to become a team lead, kind of a micro sales manager. I had two other people that I was responsible for watching their progress, helping them, helping them with bigger sales. I enjoyed that part of it. But eventually, I think I outgrew where the company wanted to go. And I started my own company. And I really didn't want to deal with a lot of people. I didn't want to deal with all the

10:45 human resources, things that you have to deal with. So I kind of became a solopreneur and enjoyed that role. So I have some respect for sales management, and I have some evidence and some experience in that. But it wasn't something that I did it for a tremendously long time. And most of that, I've learned through the experience of my clients now. That's very common. I think that there are a lot of sales managers don't connect with their people to implement a process. And right from the get-go, when you're a sales manager, you have got to connect with all of your people. The challenge is when you're promoted within your sales team, you have to change your relationships with the people that you work with. Because now you're a

11:26 leader and not just a colleague. Yeah, we find that in almost all areas of leadership. When you're promoted from within, and now you're the boss of the people that you used to go bowling with, and maybe still do, it's a challenge. And that's when we teach leadership, that's kind of one of the big areas that we have to talk about in that level. But how about for sales leaders? What is that big change where it's not just me doing the selling? Now I've got to help other people sell. And maybe I don't even know how I sold it myself. I think a lot of sales people, they don't know how they sell. It just happens for them in many ways. And so to try and look at why, this is the example I use

12:14 of Kirby Puckett, who was a great baseball player. And he was asked at one point, Kirby, how do you hit the ball so well? He goes, it's just that big man, it's just that big. He didn't know how he hit the ball so well. So he couldn't ever teach it to anybody else. So the natural sometimes make really lousy managers or leaders because they don't know, just they just expect you to be as good as they are. And they're not. So stage four is an area I never got to. It's got, I assume you never got to. And that is kind of the sponsor and strategist, the person who's making the hiring decisions who might be the VP of sales or director of sales and marketing. You shape organizational change, you exercise power, and then your contribution is to

12:55 development and change management. And this is the high level sales person, sales leader, which is going to talk about in chapter 12. What were your thoughts on that? I thought it was a little bit more operational. It got a little bit more into the structure. And I think in some people, that's a strength. And in some cases, working with people is a weakness. So you ought to feel the manager strengths and and manager, your weaknesses to a level of adequacy too. So managing the process in the people is always a big deal with sales managers and sales leaders. Yeah, I think really, but this level is taking it one more. This is the person who's leading the leaders. Yeah, right. And so now you're watching to see what your team is doing,

13:43 and you're hoping to getting a set seat at the strategy table, which is the next chapter. They have to be just as persuasive as managing the sales managers and influencing them to buy into the strategy and the plan because they're going through change, just like the sales people are going through change. Oh, man. Change management is so difficult sometimes. Well, and especially with this marketplace right now with the technology of AI being introduced is just as very relevant to when the internet was introduced, and it just took off like wildfire. We need to concentrate on having personal conversations. AI stands for artificial, not real intelligence. So let's keep that

14:22 in mind. All right, chapter 12, it's called making connections and he's talking about cross functional relationships and interactions that are needed for the success of the whole enterprise. So as a sales leader, now you're at the VP level of the director level, how are you going to make the connections? I just want to talk about one section of this guy because you and I have experience in this and I don't want to go belabor this more in a few more minutes. If you're interested in that, read the book. We can't tell you everything. But he talks about sales and marketing coordination.

14:52 And one of the statements he makes is less than 40% of firms believe that their sales and marketing units are aligned. So let's talk about that problem from the point, the perspective of the sales person Scott. What's the challenge between salespeople and what they're out trying to do and what marketing is doing? Well, I think their performance is being measured in different ways. And that's unfortunate. They need to be aligned when they think about goals and what they want to accomplish.

15:19 And I think a lot of it needs to be focused around the customer, the prospect, and why they buy. And I don't think that that's a very clear answer. There's not a clear answer to a very simple question. Why do they buy? And sales and marketing don't align in that in most cases. I think marketing gets real feature oriented. This is what it hears this great new gizmo gadget and it does all these wonderful things and you must have it. And the salespeople are selling more from a different needs perspective. And it's not just you know, the worst kind of selling is throwing the mud at the wall.

15:54 Let's throw everything we got here. Here's all the great things about our new gizmo gadget. What do you like? Well, I think bad marketing then tends to cause salespeople to do that. Right. And sometimes there's decision fatigue where if there's too many options, people don't decide.

16:09 They just wait and they deal with that. It becomes clearer, but it won't. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think sometimes marketing, the marketing that's effective is the ones that we remember that are most personal. Isn't that amazing? The marketing that's not effective is the features, the analytical, the intellectual approach to a product or feature or service that somebody is offering. And sometimes that doesn't grab people. It has to be emotional, needs to affect people personally. Well, and I think marketing doesn't do a good job selling to the salespeople. So they go out and market something and they don't tell sales what they're doing. And so somebody calls in and says, Hey, I want to talk to you because I saw this great

16:50 marketing salesperson comes into them and they say, tell me about this thing you do and the sales person says we don't do that. So we're not, we're not communicating. We're doing, we're making mistakes and how we're challenging that customer. And I think a lot of it goes back to what you said, which is we don't know what our message is. We don't know what our value is. And so we can't talk about it. We're all making up different values.

17:16 But it seems like marketing says, here's why they should buy and sales is saying, here's what they are buying. And there's just disconnected. I think about the on star. Remember on star when it was on a Cadillac and you could press on star and make reservations or flowers or whatever it is like that, nobody cared for it. All of a sudden it was, okay, now you're upside down on a ditch in Southern Minnesota on a country road. Where do you going to do? I'm going to hit my on star button. Those don't think people thought of it for us. Right. Negative motivation. Now it's important. Now it's affecting me personally, right in a very uncomfortable way. Right. Well, and it's

17:51 funny though, because sometimes we get out over our skis with the development. That's what people do with their phones now. They're ordering things. You know, I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I'm driving home from somewhere. Kathy's with me. She says, let's order something in advance. So it's ready when we get there. And then we just pick it up. Right. So we're doing the things that on star talked about, but we weren't ready for them when they had it. So marketing got ahead of quickly replaced. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Okay. Any final thoughts on the books, Scott?

18:23 No, I love the book. There's a lot of information and nuggets in the book, but it has to be something that somebody is able to apply. Otherwise, you can read it. I found it very enjoyable when I read it four or five years ago. And I wish that I would have retained more if I had a chance to apply more of it. I would have retained more of it. And I just wasn't in that situation. Well, and I think a lot of this is over and above what the sales person needs. So it's really a management level book. Understanding our audience, we don't always hit that management level as much, although it's good to talk to that a little bit. And the next book we're going to talk about

18:58 is leadership. And so that book is called Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Don't Suck. All right. So pick up that book. We'll have the author on next week. Before we go into your topics, Scott, let me make a little announcement here. Great. Do you have the right people on the bus and in the right seats? That's always the first step before investing in training, because sometimes it's not about more training. It's about finding the right people first.

19:24 If you're looking to build your team for 2026 to bring in folks who can hit your activity goals and drive the results you want, it may be time to talk with a recruiter. Just head over to mnsales.com slash offers and check the box to connect with a professional recruiter. There's no obligation just a conversation. And if you'd like us to introduce you to someone who can find the right candidates for your team, fill out the short form and we'll be in touch. Invest in your people, invest in your future, visit mnsales.com slash offers today.

19:57 Thanks, Bill. I'm really excited to share this topic. Do I really need a mentor? And I've got 10 self-reflective questions to ask yourself. And this is kind of a follow-up episode to 626, which is the gift of mentorship. And I'll have a link to that episode in our show notes as well. But first, I'd like to cover five of the questions. And then if you want to have the hand out and click the link, you can have the other five questions just in the limitations of time.

20:25 I want to cover the top five. But let's get started with first a premise. And that is if you are going to be a mentee to a mentor, you need to be able to be in a position of your life where you're willing to ask for help. So you have to be open to other ways and other ideas that people have. So you have to be vulnerable. And I'm telling you, this is an area that I struggle with because I'm supposed to be the guy that knows what other people need. So it's difficult for me to be open and to be vulnerable and to know that I don't know everything. And one of my strengths and the strength finders, number one is learner. So when I feel weak, I start reading and then I start learning and I

21:10 start feeling stronger. The next premise is you as a mentee have got to bring the interest in curiosity. If you don't have wonder, you don't have change. There's no reason for you to change because you have no wonder. You need to be interested and curious where you have questions to ask somebody who knows the answer. And then last, you need to seek understanding and at a level of confidence so that you apply what you learn. And as you apply what you learn, you're going to become better at the skills that you learn and you're going to become more confident in the advice that you're giving. So those are three premises that we have to begin with. I think one thing you

21:48 I think let me interrupt it. Yeah, please do you have to be willing to change. Yes. And and start to change because I'll tell you there's nothing that's going to drive a mentor crazy more than meeting with you. And the next time they meet with you, you've done nothing different. Right, exactly. Waste your mentors time by being a slugger and not doing if you're not going to do it, tell that person, Hey, I disagree with your the advice you're giving me and therefore I'm not going to do it. Or maybe it's I'm afraid to try that thing. I need you to help me overcome that fear. But whatever it is, don't keep going back with the same problems every time and expecting

22:26 your mentor to stick with you. They are busy people and they have better things to do. Well, how many clients have we had built where we get hired by their supervisor, their boss, the owner of the company to do coaching. And our coaching program is we're going to work on three goals. We're going to accomplish those goals and we're going to pick new goals. And we're going to talk about the activities between sessions and we're going to talk about what worked and what didn't work and how many times that we talked with somebody who doesn't do anything different.

22:52 They don't apply anything from the previous session. So we end up repeating that second or third session four or five times. No change. There's no application. Of course, there's no pressure to change either. No growth. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So these five questions, you know, at the right time for a mentor paired, I mean, when when you pair them with the areas where mentorship can really build on the strengths, both professional and in your personal development. So the first question is, am I facing challenges that I can't seem to solve on my own, even though I'm putting in all of the effort? This reminds me of the last chapter in the book about ability and effort.

23:35 So people often seek a mentor to develop problem solving framework, the resilience and confidence and ways to overcome recurring obstacles. So they're looking for more ability, learning more skills, because they already have the effort at it. Well, I think one thing about mentors is that they're usually idular company. So they understand the cultural things going on in a company. And when I'm running into problems that I can't seem to overcome, some of them are because my level isn't allowed to overcome that obstacle. And so the mentor can see which of those obstacles you can overcome on your own through grit or through problem solving, and which ones are

24:21 maybe corporate based and you can't overcome them and you're going to need to involve your leader, your direct leader, your mentor can't solve them for you, but they can advise you to say, Hey, your leader needs to help you overcome this. And in addition, really tell you maybe why there are certain procedures or policies or processes within the company that you don't understand. Oh, there's frustration if we don't understand them. Yeah. So let's get a little bit more understanding.

24:45 Now we know the reason. Now we understand the application. Number two is, could I benefit from honest constructive feedback from somebody who isn't afraid to call out my blind spots or poor leadership? So some of the reasons that other secmentors is to increase self awareness and behavioral refinement, stronger leadership habits, and accountability through truth telling guidance. You know, they call out the bad leaders or the bad practices that are within the department or within you and your behavior. And I think this is really important because if you take on that type of relationship with a mentor, you're not going to be as defensive when they call out some of your

25:30 flaws. If you can't believe that you need some growth opportunities, no matter where you are in a company, you're going to fail. If you can't answer this question that I could benefit from honest constructive feedback, then you're already on a failure track. It's tough to learn if you're constantly being defensive. Right. So number three, is there someone whose values discipline and results I admire? And I'm looking for a role model to emulate. So people who want to pick a direction of growth and not just change, they seek a mentor to develop the professional standards and identity, the attitudes and behaviors that lead to success, and the personal characteristics of

26:17 integrity that a role model has of being that mentor. And I think about this one is you're really creating a protege. You as a mentee become that protege because you're adapting the same values. That's personal, Bill. Isn't it? Yeah. I can remember I knew a man still know him in my church who had a very successful family. He was very successful in his faith. He was very successful in business. And I always wanted to ask him, would you be a mentor to me? And I'm sure he would have. But in my youth and unsureness, I never got around to asking him. And that was a big mistake because I think my business could have really flourished if I had used my mentor better or if I had asked

27:05 that person to be my mentor. And so don't, don't lack courage. I bet you, I bet you more people would mentor you than you can believe if you just ask and listen. True. I've got two very influential mentors and unfortunately both of them have passed. The first one was Oliver. I would love to absorb everything that Oliver did. The only challenge with Oliver was he would tell me, you know, you can keep that Jesus stuff to yourself. I'm not really interested in that. And that left a whole in our relationship. My next mentor was Deacon Tom Wininger, a Catholic Deacon who does sales training. And I would take everything of Tom Wininger right off the shelf and incorporate it into my life today.

27:47 And unfortunately he's passed and that has left a hole in my heart as well is missing those people that have shaped you and contributed to your life. Right. Right. Number four is do I struggle with accountability and need someone who will challenge me while still requiring that I do the work. And who do I trust enough that can guide me on self-discipline, personal responsibility, and the habit of doing the work that the mentor can really support them but doesn't do the work.

28:18 The mentor cannot do the work. So in some cases I find this individuals within an organization where their commitment is greater than the culture within the company of accountability. So they have some low standards but the sales rep has higher standards but they need somebody to be able to help them be accountable to a higher commitment and a better reputation. And sometimes that's overcoming a culture. And sometimes sales teams get stagnant and they play it safe. And unfortunately when you got somebody that's overly ambitious they show up and they stand out and that's not always good. So we need to be able to have somebody that can help us be accountable to

28:58 be able to overcome the limits of a culture. I think you need to be willing to have someone hold you by the nose and kick in the ass. And sometimes we want everybody to tell us how wonderful we are. And the mentor has got to be willing to say you screwed up and you're going to have to fix it and we're going to plan to fix it but you better get going here. Right. But the mentee has got to do the work. Last one is could my career business move faster smarter and with fewer avoidable mistakes if I had a seasoned guide. So how can I accelerate my learning, improve decision making, reduce risk through wise counsel and gain greater confidence navigating high-stakes moments. I think about this person as a personal growth advisor. So this is

29:46 about your life not just your career. So how can we find somebody like that and really influence our lives. And you need to be honest about your weaknesses. You're not going to a mentor to tell them how wonderful you are. You're going to a mentor to be honest about where you're good but also where you fail because it's in those failure points that they're going to have to help you. You already know where you're good and those are easy. If you can hit a curve ball it's easy.

30:13 If you can't hit a curve ball you need somebody to change you and fix you. So you can't go in you can't go to bat in the major leagues not being able to do something. The pitchers will know what that is. So get that guidance but be willing to be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah so true. So those are five. If you go to the handout you'll be able to get the other five. So just click on the link it's a PDF. You can download it print it off. Share it with others. If you're a sales leader share it a sales meeting and get those sales reps thinking about a mentor within the company and they may turn to you as the sales manager or the sales leader as their mentor. All right great topic.

30:51 Look forward to reading that handout. That's going to be in our show notes right? Correct. Direct link. Yep. All right. Our golden nugget for today is from Jim Rohn one of your favorites. Yes. Practice is just as valuable as the sale. The sale will make you a living. The skill will make you a fortune. So we've talked about practice. You can't just pretend you've got a practice. Wow. You know what I just finished up this last week is I listened to lead the field again by Earl Nightingale. I tell you that program changed my life when I first got into sales and it's better than any podcast you could ever listen to including ours. So check out lead the field. I

31:33 got it on audiobooks or audible. The device doesn't fade. No. No and you can find it on Spotify too but Earl Nightingale lead the field. Love it. Everything we talked about will be at www.winningitselling.com. So check it out there. Next week, no book club because we have a guest, Eric Harkins. Great leaders. Make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. It's a fun book. I started already. Look forward to it. Pick it up and take a chance to read it. Please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media. If you're so inclined, give us a five star review.

32:07 This is episode 698. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.