Special Guest Eric Harkins

0:04 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling Podcast. I'm Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute and with me is Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems and together we launched Franchise Sales Pro with the commitment to work with Franchise Ours and Franchise E's to drive sales and boost revenue. We all want to believe that we are great leaders, thoughtful, generous, capable, but I would be really that good.

0:27 How do the people on our team feel on Monday morning? Are they excited and eager? Or are they dreading the thought that the community needs to work? It's time to gauge your leadership capabilities. Scott and I welcome author and leadership consultant Eric Harpins to discuss his book, Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning, Doth the Sun. On episode 699 of the Winning and Selling Podcast. We're going to be diving into Eric's book in future episodes, but we're going to let him tell you more about what the book is about.

1:00 Before we get into the interview I want to share an announcement. For the past few months we have been gauging the interest of our listeners in franchising and we have been blown away by your response. Based on that we want to welcome our newest sponsor, Johnny Franchise. For those of you that are interested in investigating how franchising might be the next step in your journey, Johnny Franchise is a great guide and a great resource. So please listen to his announcement.

1:29 Have you ever thought about owning a business or stepping back and improving the one you already have? That's where franchising can be powerful. You're not starting from zero, you're building an approval model, an established brand, and systems that when done right give owners a real shot at success. I'm John Francis, most people know me as Johnny Franchise. I've spent my entire career in the franchise industry. As a franchisee, as a franchisee or as an operator, a board member, advisor, and a coach.

1:59 My family helped build a franchise brand that grew to more than a thousand locations worldwide. So I've seen it firsthand what works and what doesn't work. Today I work across the franchise ecosystem with prospective owners, franchisees, franchisee ors, and industry suppliers, helping people make smarter decisions, avoid expensive mistakes, and build businesses that actually hold up. Maybe you're exploring franchise ownership, maybe you're a franchisee or trying to grow without losing control, maybe you're a supplier who wants to truly understand the industry you serve.

2:33 Wherever you fit, clarity matters. That's what I'm known for. If you want straight talk and experienced perspective, visit me at JohnnyFranchise.com. Thanks very much. Alright, well we are happy to welcome Eric Harkins to our show. Eric is a leadership coach, a speaker and author who believes great leadership should make work energizing, not exhausting. In his book, Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Suck, Eric challenges leaders to rethink how their behaviors, conversations and decisions shape the everyday employee experience.

3:11 Drawing on decades of real world leadership and coaching experience, he delivers practical, no nonsense insights that help leaders build trust, accountability and engagement. Eric's work focuses on creating cultures where people want to show up, contribute and perform at their best, starting on how they feel when the week begins. We're looking forward to the book, Eric. Welcome to the Winning of Selling podcast. Yeah, good morning. Thanks for having me on. I feel like, you know, episode 699, I feel like you guys are about to, you know, your college coach about to hit win number 700.

3:45 So I'm excited to be on this episode and I know it'll be a fun conversation about leadership. Well, we're excited to have you and on and talk about your book a little bit and leadership. I've read about halfway through it. It doesn't take a long time. Quick read. I like that a lot. Yeah. I get on the books of the 250 pages. I'm bored about page 150. So, yeah, I'll tell you, I mean, obviously the title of the book seems to resonate with most people, unfortunately, or fortunately.

4:16 But the number, you know, probably the biggest piece of feedback I get is the link that takes about an hour and a half, maybe two hours to read it. And I think it's a little bit of a discussion on the airplane and finish it before you land. And I agree. I think we sort of, thanks to the world of technology that we live in. Our attention spans are getting shorter and shorter. So I said what I wanted to say and wrapped it up in far less than 250 pages.

4:42 Oh, my favorite chapters, chapter six. Yeah. Most people ask about chapter six. I think I had somebody say, you know, you should turn that into Guinness to see if it's the shortest published chapter in a book. Because it's one word long and I'll leave the audience in suspense, but chapter six has one word in it. You got me looking at it, Eric. So I'm not going to spoil the surprise, but you made me think. Or we can. That's fine. I mean, the books are now here a few years. Don't spoil it. We're going to cover that chapter six in the future.

5:11 Hopefully I get to cover that chapter. So, all right. Well, listen, Eric, as we get started today, why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey, how you came to write the book? Why do you find this message was important? Yeah, you know, writing a book. I know for a lot of people, it's a bucket list item. It really wasn't anything I'd ever thought about. You know, I spent 25 years in corporate America, kind of doing the traditional climbing the ladder.

5:36 I started as a college intern with Target Corporation, became a manager right after I graduated with them. Kind of worked my way up a lot of retail was a store manager for Coles. Target for a few years opened the fourth super target in the country, which happened to be in Mason City, Iowa. I'm dating myself. That was back in 1996. Cool early career experience. You know, I left. I went to Coles, became a store manager. Left Coles went back to Target. And that's when I kind of shifted into human resources and kind of bounced in between HR and sales operations throughout my career.

6:13 My last role in corporate America prior to starting my own firm. I was the chief administrative chief HR officer for a company called Victor, which was a wireless retailer that ran Verizon stores. And we had about 1200 retail locations across 47 states, 7000 employees. It was it was a big operation in the book actually sort of was inspired by that role because it was an opportunity where a private equity firm had bought four different different companies brought them together and hired a leadership team to create one culture. And for anyone who's done, you know, post acquisition, cultural assimilation. It's, it's not always easy.

6:51 And, you know, we had four very different geographical territories, Southern California, Salt Lake City, North Carolina, Minnesota. So we had lots of things working against us. And, and we put together some things that I know we'll talk about this morning that really worked and you said it in the intro, you know, it's, it's not overly complicated stuff. And that's what I love talking about. Like, it is so easy to create a culture that people want to be a part of. And after 30 years now, because then I started my own consulting firm, GKG search and out placement and GKG stands for get, keep and grow.

7:27 And I am more convinced now than I've ever been after 30 plus years of doing this, that there are only two things that are keeping every company from being amazing. You're letting underperformers show up every day and you're letting bad leaders lead people. And it is really that simple. If you have the courage and we can talk about why I use that word courage, if you have the courage to start focusing on those two things, you will see overnight an environment that changes that people are excited to go to where they're not driving to work on Monday morning with that pit in their stomach. And the one thing that I learned across all of those environments, bad leaders are bad leaders.

8:07 And you will never create a good culture with a bad leader in place. So, let's break it down, Eric, into some ways that leaders can make sure that Monday mornings don't suck. You've got us in suspense. I want to hear some examples. Yeah. So, you know, in the book, I have this tool that I've actually used for a long time, I don't know, 15 years probably, and it's called lead. And lead stands for leadership expectations and development.

8:33 And it's my version of, you know, a leadership assessment tool and it's questions to ask of the leaders near company. Because one of the things that I learned, I think a mistake that's being made in corporate America every day is that we hire leaders and we tell them what their job is. Hey, congratulations, Bill. You're the new chief sales officer. Here's your office. We'll see you Monday. What we don't do is sit down during the interview process and tell the story of why fill in the name of your company. Why it is so important to us that leaders who work here create a culture of people want to be a part of.

9:10 And so one of the things I've worked with companies on is creating a set of expectations. And these are not values. This is an emission statement on the wall. This is how do you want your leaders to show up every day? So we can play along if you want. There's eight questions to ask or I'll just do a few of them and then people can, you know, check it out if they want to. So if for anyone who's listening, think about a leader who you've worked for and whoever popped into your mind, I just want, I want the listeners to just kind of say yes or no.

9:40 And the first question is, do the leaders in your organization create a culture high performers want to be a part of? Do they bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day? Do they build relationships at all levels of the organization? Or do you have leaders that walk by the receptionist every morning because he or she's not important enough to acknowledge? Do your leaders support the direction of the company with no hidden agendas? Now, I'm usually at about number four when I have a leader say, oh, oh, it's enough.

10:18 And I'll usually say, well, I have four more questions. No, no, no, I can't take anymore. Exactly. And it's like, well, and the other four, I'll go through them really fast, right? Do they consistently deliver results? That's your all-encompassing? Do they perform, right? Do they manage the performance of their team? Are they decisive and do they make a tough call when a tough call needs to be made? Because I promise anyone who's listening.

10:42 Other than your high performers waking up every morning, hoping you're going to deal with the under performers in the organization that day, they are driving to work, hoping you're going to make a decision. They've been waiting for you to make for days, weeks, or months, in some case. And then the last question is, do the leaders in your organization help the company grow by developing people? And that's all about, do leaders in your organization get excited about the idea of having somebody reporting to them who is more capable than them of taking over?

11:13 Or are they threatened by that? And I joke about it in the book, and when I do keynote speaking, that, you know, I was lucky, very lucky in my career to be the head of HR three different times. And I don't know that much about human resources. And anyone who's worked for me will say, yeah, that guy doesn't know that much about HR. And I kind of joke about it. There's some truth to it. But it wasn't about being the subject matter expert as the head of HR.

11:36 It was about hiring the subject matter experts that reported to me. And I'll leave you with one other thing, and then I'll pause and stop talking. But I got to get passionate about this. You know, I like to joke and say CEOs have the easiest job in the company. And I really believe they do. Because I think any CEO who's listening to this has one job every day, deciding if they have the right direct reports. That's it.

12:03 Otherwise, they should be walking down the hall high five and kissing babies and shaking hands, hanging out in the break room with employees. Because why else would they have to do anything if they have the right direct reports? And if you're a leader, whether you're the CEO or you're a leader, and you're involved in things that you don't think you should be involved in on a daily basis, then you don't have the right direct reports. That's it. So we can unpack that as much as you'd like, but I'll pause there and kind of get your reaction to lead.

12:33 Well, you've been, you've been a trainer to coach as well. And we've got, I run into this all the time, fix this lousy person that we have. Yeah. You know, he's not accountable. He doesn't come to work on time. Fix him. It's like, fire him. Yeah. Send us all some time in trouble. Don't give me your worst person to fix. Give me your best person to reward them with coaching and with some new direction and with some. Why do we keep trying to fix the patterns instead of instead of really focusing in on the middle, the ones that have the potential to grow.

13:06 Yeah, Bill. I love that. And, you know, a couple thoughts. One of the things I like to ask leaders is, do your high performers know their high performers. And I'll always get a well, I'm sure they do. It's like, no, that's not what I asked. Have you told your high performers that they are your high performers? Well, we just had a conversation the other day. I'm sure they know that that, you know, I think they're great.

13:30 And it's like, no, have you actually said, Hey, Scott, I just want you to know you are one of our highest performers here. And I really appreciate everything you do every day. For some reason we don't do that. And I can come back to maybe why. But the other side is, yeah, equally important. Do your under performers know their under performers. And I get it. Listen, nobody likes having tough conversations. Right. It's not a fun part of the job. But the difference between good and great leaders is they don't avoid having them.

14:02 And I talk about it in the book, you know, I mean, I was the head of HR. I was at companies that did layoffs. We closed retail locations. It was not fun stuff. You know, I had to fire a lot of people throughout my career. And I always joke about it that, you know, I never went home after I fired somebody and high-fived my wife. I got to do it again, except a couple of times, because there are a couple of times where it can be fun when it's a really bad leader.

14:26 But for the most part, no, it's not a fun part of the job. But if you have the courage to sit down and where I'm going with this to answer your question, Bill, if I had a dollar for every time my answer to a question that I got from a leader when I was consulting with them was, have you sat down and talked to them about it? Well, what do you mean? Have you sat down and said, why have you been late five times in the last seven days? Or why are you consistently late?

14:55 And then it's up to you to decide what the need to the business dictate. Is it something as simple as, hey, on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, I have to drop my kids off at school because my wife goes into the office. So I can't get here by eight, but I am here by eight thirty. If that's not a simple request, then I don't know what kind of business you run. And that's not my call to make. I mean, you have to make a decision that is right for the needs of your business.

15:20 But I have found more often than not the reason somebody is filling the blank, not in a good mood shows up, you know, acting like they don't want to be there is late is something that can be solvable. If you sit down and just have a genuine and honest conversation. And I think we are afraid and I'll take a shot at my own discipline. You know, I spent 20 of my 25 years in human resources. People have heard me say I joke that I genuinely tend to dislike most HR leaders because, you know, they get caught up in the wrong thing, which is a policy and a procedure and they're very black and white.

15:58 And it's a great world and it's greater than it's ever been. And so what about sitting down with somebody and saying, Hey, Scott, I've noticed that you don't seem like you like working here. Am I misreading that? That's not a threatening comment. That doesn't tell them they're going to get fired. But it might be something as simple as, Well, what do you mean? It's like, Well, you know, we were in a meeting for four hours yesterday and I didn't see a smile once and man, I was giving you my best material.

16:24 I was, you know, we were having fun and, you know, most of the people were pretty engaged and joking and I really like to understand what's keeping you from wanting to work here. Because one of the things I always did when I was in a leadership role inside of a company was, I loved to ask employees. And that's the worst part about working here. Like on the day when you drive home and you're going to quit. Why? What happened that day?

16:51 And it is almost always because of a leader, or I have to work with incompetent people and I'm a high performer. And really that's kind of what it comes down to. And, you know, I have this concept address the one or lose the nine, which I believe every team of 10 people has one person who's probably not performing at the level of the world. Now that doesn't mean that person needs to get fired. It may end up in that. But it does mean that if you don't sit down and address that behavior, you're going to lose the other nine people.

17:17 Three are going to go across the street to your competitor. Three are going to model that behavior because you've let it be acceptable. And the worst is that three people are going to quit. But they're just never going to give you their notice. Well, we see them soon. They show up every day, but they quit you a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. We see the same thing in sales leaders. They offer vague performance parameters. They don't want to have the conversation. They don't do the ride along. So they don't have that conversation. You're talking about on a regular basis.

17:51 And then they're frustrated because people aren't hitting those goals, but then they won't let them go because they don't want to have to hire somebody. So, you know, what's going on here? What's going on? Why do we have such problems with that conversation? Yeah. I like to say that if you're a leader of a high performing team, it's the greatest job out there. If you're a leader of a bunch of underperformers, it sucks. Like being a people leader for people who don't want to be there and are underperforming is no fun at all. And I will say this. I'm going to tell a quick story, but I'll say this to anyone listening, you know, that's struggling with that.

18:31 The amount of available talent right now, and I'm sure the two of you would agree with this, is at a level I've never seen in my career because of the world we live in with mass layoffs and restructuring and uncertainty everywhere. And, you know, I'm sure in the next week or two, we'll hear about another thousand people, unfortunately, that were impacted at some organization. And if you are driving to work right now and you have an underperformer on your team, I promise you, if you posted that job, or you called your network and said, Hey, I need a new sales leader or a new entry level sales person, doesn't matter what the level is, you will have 100 people in line wanting the opportunity to work at this organization.

19:19 And they will run through a wall for you. And so I want to share one quick story that if I could just, you know, if I could just have leaders when I'm consulting say, you know, trust me, you know, believe me, this works. So I was consulting with an organization and the CEO was wrestling happened to be their sales leader knew that that person needed to go. And that was a situation where, yeah, they weren't going to get in 90 days to improve their business.

19:45 They just needed to make a change. We talked about it for a month. And then another month. And then another month. And that leader was still there. And there were probably six times where she told me, Today's the day. I'm going to do it. And then she never did. She calls me one morning. She said, This is it. Today's the day. And it was. She went. She had the conversation. She sent an email out to the organization, letting them know that this person was no longer with the organization within 10 minutes of that email being sent.

20:16 She got a text. And the text was a picture of people from the sales team who had gone into the break room and taken a selfie. And they were all holding up their thumb. And the text said, Thank you. That is a true story. And guess what she said to me. I should have done it three months ago. I said, Yep, but you did it today and give yourself the credit for that. And the next quarter was their highest performing quarter they've ever had from a sales standpoint. And that is not coincidental.

20:51 And all I can say is, I don't know why people struggle with it so much. You know, we're obviously based in Minneapolis. I know your audience extends far beyond that. You know, there's the running joke that we're, you know, a little passive aggressive in this town and this state and that we struggle having tough conversations. I think everyone struggles having tough conversations because they think it's going to be this ugly, contentious. I'm going to throw something at you. I'm going to throw it out.

21:19 You're running out. You're going to threaten you and all of the work that needs to happen to make sure it's not an ugly event is what should be happening every day. And so I think part of the answer to the question is, it's not at the moment when we have to sit down and have the conversation. It's how are you showing up as a leader every day. Because I have this dream. And it's been 30 years and I'm still dreaming it that someday I'm going to work with a company that doesn't have annual annual reviews and doesn't have performance improvement plans because they don't need to. Because they have great leaders who talk to their team every day, week and month, and

21:58 there are no surprises. The high performers know their high performers, the under performers know their under performers, and if somebody doesn't want to be there, they have the courage to invite them to go to their biggest competitor and underperform over there. And they replace them with somebody who does want to be there. And so I think I'm coming to this perspective that it's less about the moment I need to sit down and have a conversation and some subconscious level of guilt that I have that I haven't done right by this person because I've just been frustrated for four months that they haven't turned in this report, but I've never said anything to them. And so I do then in that moment hold myself accountable that I

22:41 didn't do the work I should have done. And then I avoid it. And listen, there are a lot of people who have a belief. And I used to give life advice until I realized I have a lot of my own stuff to deal with. So I don't give life advice. But I know a lot of people in my in my life who who subscribe to the belief that if you just don't talk about something that eventually goes away, and it doesn't, it builds and it grows. And then resentment comes in. And then you get to the point in the workplace where you're so upset with this employee, you can't even stand to look at him. And all of that was avoidable if you'd had a conversation a month ago, a week ago, a day ago. And so I think that's what we need

23:20 to focus on. And that's where lead becomes this guidepost. I mean, imagine being able to answer yes to all eight of those questions for every one of the leaders in your organization. If you can, I promise you, there's no way, you know, the cover of my book is a woman with her head on the desk and we've all been there. It's Monday morning. Oh, I just don't want to be here. I promise you, if you can answer yes to all eight questions for every leader in your organization, your employees not only aren't putting their head on their desk, they actually want to come to work because they get to work with other high performers.

23:56 And they look forward to it. And I know I'm rambling, but this stuff is simple. And I get so frustrated because we make it so hard. And it's just really that easy to have a place that people love working at. Eric, I feel like I just woke up. I've been in the audience listening to you and I'm actually co host. Oh, God, I gotta ask another question. Wait a minute here. We talk about the CEO, this young lady that had a tough decision to make. Where do these people learn this sort of leadership philosophy or process where they get into this rut of being passive aggressive or they're hoping that it just goes away? Where do they learn that? Is that experience?

24:36 Is it training? Yeah, I think it's a little bit of all of that. I mean, I do think that yeah, I mean, listen, we learn, you know, I like to say you learn way more from the bad leaders you were slower than the good ones. And I think everyone would agree with that, right? And I, you know, I tell a story in the book and, you know, I have these three rules that I talk about and, you know, rule three is about the quality of your leader. And, you know, I joke in the, I don't joke in the book, but you know, the first leader I had, I graduated from college, I finished my training, I got placed at a location, was probably the worst leader I ever worked for. And I didn't realize the gift that that was, because he

25:16 said something to me on the way out on my last day when I was moving to a new location. And it's the very end of the book. And, and I'll paraphrase it in a PG way, because it's the adult version in the book. But he essentially said, I know I'm a bad leader and people don't, or I know that people don't like me and they think I'm a mean person. And it's because I am. And he said to me, you know, Eric, you will never be successful as a leader if people like working for you. They have to fear you. I was 22 years old. And it just, I thought, I don't think that's right. Like, I don't think that's, is that really true? And so I tell the story in the book

25:56 that I went on this 25 year journey to try to prove him wrong. And, you know, I just, I think you can be a genuine and authentic person who really, truly wants to get to know your team, and has the courage to call people out when they're not performing. And understanding, I mean, listen, I'm sure the two of you have as well, I've fired people and walked out with them, shook their hand and said, Hey, let's meet for coffee in a month. You know, let me know how I can help you and best elect you in your next adventure. It doesn't have to be this angry, you know, frustrating. And it becomes that again, because for three months, you let it simmer and

26:36 simmer and simmer and now it's boiling. And you don't know how to handle it because it's at a point where the opportunity for that person to improve is gone. Because you've been and you've been aggravating them, hoping they'll quit. And you're and that is to the problem because you're aggravating them, hoping they'll say, Oh, well, the heck with this, instead of firing them. And you know, I when I was thinking about, you know, the podcast and some of the questions that you said we might get into, and I didn't come up with this, but it, but it sort of hit me like, I think sort of an umbrella over this whole conversation. And I've never used this analogy before is,

27:12 you know, the, the choose your hard, right? And again, great life advice. I mean, you want to lose weight, it's hard to lose weight, but it's hard to look in the mirror every day and not like who you see. Choose your hard, right? It's hard to have a tough conversation, but it's harder to not. And people don't believe that, but you know, choose your hard because again, I promise you, and I had this in that last role with the Verizon retailer, where we made the decision that we were going to have a certain quality of leader who treated the team away in a way that they enjoyed being part of this brand and this company. And that we were very visible about it. And I think

27:56 that's one of the things that as soon as that company that I talked about with the CEO who made the change with the sales leader, the second the sales team saw that she heard them, that she realized they needed a different leader. They ran through a wall for and that's all she needed to do was say, listen, I know this isn't the right leader. And how many times have we had conversations where companies know who their bad leaders are, they do. And if you don't just ask your high performers and they'll tell you. And here's a simple, simple check. If you sent an email out today to the entire organization that, you know, Scott Plum is no longer with the organization,

28:43 what's the reaction going to be? Is it going to be what Scott's gone? No, why did Scott leave? Scott's awesome. Or are they going to go in the break room and take a selfie with their thumb up? That's the question you need to ask yourself.

28:57 That's profound. If I could throw in a question here from a sales person's perspective, what can salespeople do to make sure that Monday mornings don't suck? Yeah. I think in most ways, it's the same. Do you have the right people? And lead is focused on people leaders. But I also have a set of expectations for individual contributors. And surprisingly, they're not much different. Do you want your leaders to bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day? Well, yeah. Do you want your individual contributors to bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day? Well, yeah. And the only differences are things like are your individual contributors a person people like working with, right? Do your individual

29:45 contributors who are very high performers help other individual contributors become high performers? So if you have a salesperson, and I would say this is fairly common, whether they're a leader or an individual contributor, and they hold the secret sauce and they don't share it with anyone, and they have this formula, and they have this recipe, but I'm not going to give it out to anyone. That's not okay, right? Because you don't own that sales business. You are part of a team.

30:15 Are they a person who is performing? If not, find out why. And I do think that across disciplines, you don't need something different in sales than you need in any other function. You need leaders that people like working with and for, and you need high performers. And now, you two know a lot better than me. I certainly recognize that there are classes, coaching, and sales excellence kind of best practices and things to do as a sales team, which is where your organization comes into play, and people should absolutely reach out if they're struggling with that. Because I do think that you can train sales skills.

30:58 I also think you're either the type of person who shows up as a genuine and authentic person who wants to be there, or you're not. And that doesn't matter what discipline you're in, and what level you're at. Yeah. One of the things I say is you can't coach, you can't teach character. No. Right. You can't teach hard work. These are things that people have built over the years. And you have somebody that's an inter performer for those reasons. You're not going to change them.

31:27 No. Probably one of the biggest challenges I get after somebody hears me speak, or they read the book, they say, you know Eric, you're pretty black and white about leaders not being able to change. I mean, you don't think people can change. And I'd say, I've changed my perspective a bit in the last few years, where do I think people can change? I do. But what you were just saying, I couldn't agree with more Bill. It depends on what needs to be changed. If you are the type of person, leader or not, that walks into the office every morning and ignores the receptionist.

32:01 No, you can't change that. You can be coached. Hey, building relationships at all levels of the organization is important to us. Mary at the front desk said, you've never even said, good morning tour. Why is that? Now that person can do two things, own that. And if they have the confidence to go and sit down and say, Hey, Mary, I just want to apologize because I've worked here

32:26 for two and a half years and I have never introduced myself. And I'd love to have coffee with you. Unfortunately, in my experience, most people aren't willing to do that. What they do is they say something. And this is a true story. I actually had somebody who told me a story where the person this leader came up to them and said to them, Hey, my boss told me I should probably introduce myself to you. Now it's worse. Like now you shouldn't have even said that because now that person's like, what the heck? Like you're talking to me because you were told you have to. So I do think it depends.

33:04 You're right. I mean, bad behaviors are bad behaviors. You know, chapter six, right? I'm going to spoil it for everyone. Chapter six, the title is, can a bad leader create a good culture? And you turn the page and the page says, no, next chapter. Next chapter.

33:24 Make it simple. That's got a final question. He always likes to ask. You probably won't be surprised by this. But what book or person has had the greatest impact on your life or career? Boy, I am a huge fan of Gary V. Okay. Gary V is a sales and marketing expert. He is a keynote speaker and a consultant and a coach. He's very direct. He's very no nonsense. He uses a lot of adult language. I like to use adult language and he makes me look like I'm in grade school. But he's just very, very black and white, like things like a bad leader will never create a good culture. So stop trying, right?

34:06 I always say, please don't send your worst leaders to leadership training. Because all you have is maybe trained bad leaders and less money on your bottom line. And so Gary V for anyone who wants to check out some of his content, he's brilliant in his coaching. And it's just kind of no nonsense matter of fact. Same sort of philosophy. Let's not make this harder than it is. Yeah. I think you described him very well, Eric. Yeah. Well, thank you for a great time. This was fun.

34:35 Yeah, always fun to chat with you guys and I appreciate you having me on and congrats on 700 episodes now. So we've wrapped 699. That's a huge accomplishment.

34:47 Yeah. So please listen to the show. Feel free to email us. If you need time, you want to come back and explain something that Bill and I didn't explain correctly. As we go to the book, we're going to have fun. We have eight weeks of the book, I think. So awesome. Yeah. We'll have some resources in the show notes so you can check out johnniefranchise.com. And then we'll also have a link to Eric's website so you can connect with him there.

35:11 Our golden nugget today is customers will never love a company until the employees love it first by Simon Siddick. And I think we all know who he is. Begin with why is what he's really known for. All right. That's good. Eric, I would assume you agree with that quote. Oh, love that quote. And you know, if I had to give you a second name, it would have been Simon Sinnock after Gary Vee. All right. Well, all the information we talked about today, Eric's website is going to be at winning at selling.com. So look for it there. This is episode 699.

35:47 Next week, Bill and I will be having the topic, the top 10 greatest sales questions. And we're going to be covering chapters one through three of Eric's book, Great Leaders, make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. Please subscribe and share this podcast with your colleagues and on your social media networks. We'd be grateful for a five star review post a favorable comment. If not favorable, please contact us directly. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.