Why Discipline Beats Distraction Every Time

0:03 Thank you for joining us on the Winning and Selling podcast. I'm Bill Hellkamp of Reach Development Systems and with me is Professor Scott Plum of the Minnesota Sales Institute. And together we have launched Franchise Sales Pro with a commitment to work with franchiseers and franchisees to drive sales and boost revenue. January has a way of forcing clarity. Some people lean into it through dry January which is about far more than alcohol.

0:28 It's about recognizing the distractions we use to numb discomfort, delay discipline and avoid our best work. In sales and in life success rarely breaks down because of the lack of talent. It breaks down because distractions keep winning. Today's conversation focuses on how discipline allows us to control ourselves, influence others and make a meaningful difference. If you're serious about cutting distractions, honoring your God giving gifts and building a better 2026, join Bill and I as we welcome Tim Murray to discuss why discipline beats distraction every time on episode 702 of the Winning and Selling podcast.

1:05 Before we introduce Tim, we have an announcement. Hiring a sales rep shouldn't feel like a gamble, but for many sales leaders it does. Too often underperforming sales people are tolerated simply because the risk of hiring the wrong person feels even worse. So why does the hiring process fail so often? Research consistently points to three primary reasons sales reps don't succeed. Number one, misaligned expectations. Some candidates believe selling should be easy.

1:38 When prospecting becomes uncomfortable or rejection shows up, they shut down. Number two, failure to fill the funnel. Many sales people overestimate their closing percentage, assuming they'll need fewer prospects until the pipeline runs dry. And number three, inconsistent follow-up. When prospects hesitate, some reps give up too soon, leaving revenue on the table that persistence would have secured. Now imagine knowing before you hire whether a candidate truly has the passion, resilience and discipline required to execute the full sales process.

2:12 You can, by using a proven sales assessment that measures the core competency shown to predict real sales performance, you dramatically reduce hiring risks. The winning of selling podcast has partnered with an assessment provider that evaluates the specific traits that separate top performers from the rest. If you want greater confidence in your next sales hire, learn more at mnsales.com slash offers. Alright, just want to remind her that we have no book club because we do have the guest.

2:49 But next week we'll be back to great leaders. Make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. We'll do chapter seven, eight and nine. We welcome Tim Murray, who over the last 45 years of his career has learned in various ways how to get just about anybody to say yes, which is what sales is all about. Whether it's influencing leaders in corporate America to advance a project or approve a budget, getting three women to say yes to marrying him or serving as a sales leader leading a sales organizations while remaining an active sales person himself.

3:24 As a fundraiser for his newest project, Tim has closed more than 10,000 yeses in his career and yes, he actually keeps track of them. Today we're excited to explore different methodologies disciplines and even some contrarian thinking behind how to get people to say yes, Tim claims he can get anybody to say yes to anything with enough time, pain, opportunity or motivation. And if that doesn't work, he's not above applying a little Catholic guilt. We look forward to hearing from Tim today Tim welcome to the winning of selling podcast.

3:55 Good morning gentlemen, tonight I'll be here. Nice to have you. Great to have you. So let's break it down. Tell us about the journey. How did you end up where you're, you're supporting veterans and PTSD in this this Bravo Zulu house. Tell us about how you got to this point. Well, the short version, first of all, what a great podcast you guys have and what an honor it is to be here. So 17 years ago I've ended up on the doorstep of Colonel Father Martin Fleming over in St Paul.

4:28 I was drunk living in my car. I might have looked this good Scott and bill but I definitely didn't smell this good. And rather than kick me off his porch father asked me in for a cup of coffee and that began a journey of he and I starting some sober homes that then led to some work during COVID to discover that the military men and women who are committing suicide on a daily basis. In this time of this program, Scott and Bill, one veteran will kill himself and one veteran will be getting ready to kill himself 22 a day, 6000 a year.

5:07 And at the core of that problem is a combination of PTSD and addiction. So after trying to get others to see the importance of this, I would only imagine what father would have said who passed in 2018 at 92 years old. He would have said something like, so what, Tim, what are you going to do about it? And so that's how we launched Bravo Zulu House. Yeah, it's tough, Tim. When they ask you to be accountable, isn't it? Yes, like discipline accountability is always in my best interest, but I always resist it.

5:46 Well, thank you for the work you're doing and you've done. I'm sure that'll get sprinkled into our conversation here today. But we did want to talk about discipline and how we can avoid the distractions of life. So what are some of the disciplines you follow to prevent the fear, uncertainty and doubt, which we call FUD, from creeping in and eroding confidence during a sales cycle or when you're trying to get somebody to help with fundraising or encourage people?

6:11 What is the discipline you follow? Well, it's a great question and I think that the topic is as probably as broad and as deep as the time would allow anybody to talk about it.

6:26 I think each of us has our own methods and I'll just share mine. I don't claim them to be the best or the only. But I think first and foremost is I really have to enjoy that I've got to have fun. You know, most sales people are successful because they're likable human beings. They're not the smartest. They're not the most technically competent. They usually have people to help them with that. They're usually not the most disciplined in terms of filling out their sales pipeline reports and the other things that their boss is all over their behinds for.

7:02 What the most successful sales people are, they're simply likable human beings. And what I have to remember is I've got to have fun. So first and foremost, I just really enjoyed it. And if I'm not enjoying it, I go find something else to do. Life's just too short. So the lack of joy, I think, is a key element that's missing in most people's discipline. People try harder to do something they hate doing. I don't know how that can work if you do the math on that.

7:31 The second is, is that I'm like, I believe that curiosity and learning to be a very good question asker is a core discipline. It does two things. One is, is it keeps me focusing going forward rather than focusing on the losses or the successes I may have had in the past. And second is, is that it keeps me learning. I'm curious. And third and probably the most important is, if I'm asking questions, that means the other person's talking and I'm not.

8:04 Because I don't know about you, Bill or Scott, but when I'm in a sales call, there's only one person who's the smartest person in the room. And it's not me. Even though I may usually be the smartest person in the room, that's not how they view it. And so that's how I've got to make sure I come across. Tim, let's back up a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about the Bravo Zulu house? What is the mission there and kind of give us some context about what this project is that you're working on?

8:34 Sure. Our mission is to declare war on PTSD. We are America's first all military sober home, helping veterans with PTSD and addiction. As I mentioned, since 2001, we've lost about 7,500 veterans to combat deaths. And we mourn every one of those. My son, Lieutenant Colonel, my son in law is a, well, he's about to be promoted to be a lieutenant colonel. I'm a bragger as a dad. So he's a major. My son in law, Captain Air Force.

9:08 So, you know, I've got, I was raised by the way by a paratrooping hero from Fort Campbell in Kentucky with 101st Airborne. And I've got a permanent bruise right here, by the way to prove it was raised by him. So we've lost 7,500 in the last 24 years. And that same 24 year period guys, 150,000 veterans have killed themselves. Think about that. Wow. And so nobody's doing anything about that. And so, like I said, you know, we decided to step in and do something about it.

9:43 That's a great story. And your career, you and I, you know, you've done sales training, you've led groups, right? You've done the same path that Bill and I have been on, right? Yeah, I've had the opportunity. You know, one of the indications of that somebody might be a future member of a 12 step program is the fact I've had 43 jobs in my career and I've been fired from most of them. For being a drunk. So the benefit is, is that it didn't affect my performance. It just affected whether or not I was tolerable enough to be wanting to continue to keep around the team.

10:15 So I've had the opportunity to lead organizations as well as be a sales person myself. And I love sales. I think it's the, it's the WD 40 of commerce. Nothing happens until somebody buys and sells something. Exactly. Exactly. This term inside baseball, have you ever used that term inside baseball in the, you know, how do you use that thinking when you're evaluating someone's effectiveness or moving a prospect through a sales funnel or a buying process? You've got a lot of experience in this.

10:48 Can you share with our audience your process? Yeah, absolutely. You know, the first is that every sales call, I believe you have to have a disciplined approach to what is the thing I'm trying to get somebody to say yes to most sales processes have multiple sales steps to them. I think the average number of sales milestones these days is around five or six. So I have to remember that I'm in the meeting selling business.

11:14 I'm not into selling my product. I'm not in the, I'm selling the meeting. Some people call it a commitment objective. Some people call it a BAM fam book a meeting from a meeting. But if I walk out of there without a commitment to meet again, I've not done my job. I've been personated to sales person. I'm guilty of theft. Of stealing the money from my employer by going in, having a good conversation and then walking out with no commitment to move the sales process forward.

11:45 So first and foremost, the inside baseball is what are you going to get this person to say yes to. It might be yes to include a decision maker. It might be yes to include a technical expert or a gatekeeper. It might be yes to get them to get their boss in the room. It might be yes to a demo. Each sales person in each process has a different step. It might be an inducement to trial. Let's do a test drive. Let's go take a walk through a house.

12:09 These are all engaging the prospect in the selling process to move the sales process forward. The second is what exactly are the theoretical pain points that I'm probing for? So if I'm going to sit down with you or Bill and I'm going to be talking about your. I'm going to be asking things like how difficult is it to find a good quality. Host or excuse me how good is it to find a good quality guest. One of the biggest frustrations you have in guests who who maybe don't prepare and how you have to scramble to make sure it's an entertaining experience.

12:53 You know where do I think the pain points might be and then I need to prepare my questions in advance to probe so that I can find those pain points. And then third is is that most sales people once they find a pain point they think ah that's my opportunity and they start to sell. And what I've learned is it's the exact opposite once I find a pain point if I'm a doctor Scott or Bill and I poke and I hit a spot on your shoulder.

13:23 You know what I do is rather than go oh well let me tell you about our soldier solution. The solar solutions that's hard to say shoulder solutions. I start doing like this. Hey so how does that feel? Bam Bam Bam Bam Bam. I'm just going to keep asking questions that are poking on it till finally they say stop with the pain. Can you help me with that? Say yes I think I can. Let's talk about some solutions. So Tim you talked about drinking and some of the challenges that you face and obviously sales can be a challenging career.

13:58 Sometimes our confidence goes down and we resort to distractions of whatever kind that we might find. So what do you do to not get into unhealthy distractions and maybe to push yourself toward those more healthy habits. Again you talked about drinking we all have other kinds of distractions that are very available to us. Sure well you know I don't think you can throw a stick in a sales meeting and you know not hit somebody who is either a heavy drinker that's in sobriety.

14:33 Or is becoming one of those two. Very few people deal with stress without some type of distraction. And liquor as we all know is a very common lubricant in business and particularly in sales. And what I remind people is goos is not the problem. I'm the problem. Some people can handle it just fine I couldn't. And the challenge is that distractions are really nothing more than avoidance. And until I could understand that you know I just thought well listen I'm such a smart guy in this brain.

15:12 It's like a super computer and you know Bill how do you think they cool super computers. Well they they put water on them. Well my brain is such a super computer it doesn't need just water it needs alcohol. You know you don't understand. So I think a lot of times we suffer as human beings from terminal uniqueness. You know what you don't understand. You know I got my I got the this and the this and then my wife and all my mother and then all this boss and then this economy and you know our prices are too high and you know inventory is low.

15:45 And you know there's a million and one different reasons why I'm going to rationalize that my situation is unique and special to anyone else. And as a result I then convince myself that I deserve this. I deserve this distraction. So I'm going to take off on early on a Friday because I deserve to go to the cabin because I've done so well versus what the winners do is they stay disciplined and they say no I will only leave early if I book my 10 appointments.

16:16 Personally my goal every week is 10 appointments a week which is effing hard by the way guys I've been tracking this in the last 104 weeks. I've had 949 meetings which is just under 9 meetings a week and that's trying to do 10. Trust me. So the discipline is really a function of you know what are you defining as success if your definition of success is feeling better than you're going to distract. If your definition of success is I want to accomplish these activities because activity breeds result the universe rewards activity.

16:56 Now yes it has to be the right activity. It has to be the right prospects but the universe rewards activity. And without that discipline belief I just think all bets are off. So part of what I try to do Bill and what I'm talking to people is I just simply ask questions like how important is discipline in your life. Well what do you mean. Well can you give me an example in life when you've had some success whether it's athletics music.

17:27 Something maybe in the gym and invariably in there. There's discipline. Another way that I'll get at that is you know and we'll do a little role play here's how about you Bill. Have you been a coach of a sports team or any. Sure sure I've got four I got three boys so. Awesome so what sports did you coach baseball. Perfect so Bill let me ask you this would you ever let a player who is a superstar player. Just show up for the games even if he was twice as good as the rest of the boys would you let a player do that.

18:04 No I wanted him to show some leadership and help the other team help the rest of the team. What would you be communicating to that athlete if you let them only show up for the games because at that point in their career they're better than everybody else you'd be telling them what. That only thing that matters is talent. Correct. You would not be teaching him the value of discipline and you also would be communicating that you're never going to need to ever get better.

18:33 Right. Because right now at this exact moment in time you are better than your peers but that's going to move. And so no self respecting coach and a lot of sales people are coaches and no self respecting sales guy would ever let an athlete just show up and yet. How many sales people actually prepare and dress rehearsal. A sales call. Yeah well we talk about we talk about it all the time quick practice and on your customers.

19:04 Right. Well there you go. I'm preaching to the choir. Well that's all right. We need to hear it from different voices but you're absolutely right we can't we can't just go in on game day. Yeah so that discipline and without that discipline then why would I expect to have discipline in my personal life why would I expect to be able to eat healthy so I can keep thin and have energy why would I expect to be. Reasonably sober so that I can be present with my family or present with my prospects.

19:33 Why would I expect to be having some type of spiritual discipline so I've got a general sense of whether I'm going to follow the rules or I'm going to cheat whether I'm going to lie on my expense report or not. All of these eventually begin to build up like they did for me. Frankly I just didn't think the rules applied to me I just thought I was so much better and I was so arrogant and so ignorant that I believe that my top performance would justify my not following the rules.

20:04 Well the problem is is that there's always somebody who's bigger than better and that if it prolongs long enough like it did for me. You end up in a world of hurt where all of a sudden the world just simply rejects you and says you know what we're done. You're going. Let's go into that a little bit Tim I think that's fascinating because we were either on the path to bettering ourselves or we're kind of diving down into this path to lose your ship and and you've dealt with this with yourself with other people.

20:36 What are some of the warning signs we should look for that were kind of on this path to mediocrity or you know you said it 43 jobs you all got fired from. You know what what are the signs we should look for that says I'm on the wrong side of this equation. Well it's a great question Bill because I think the biggest challenge is for those of us when I was on that path. There's nothing you could have said that would have convinced me I was on that path.

21:08 And so this lack of self awareness that I'm the common denominator in all of my problems. You know when I started taking a hard look at myself and what was going on. It was very easy to blame or to assign responsibility to something outside of me. So the path. I think is littered with the experiences where I'm the common denominator I'm ground zero for all my problems. And unfortunately we're pain based learners. I have yet to meet somebody who goes you know the three greatest things I learned in my life where the results of the three greatest successes I've ever had.

21:50 Never heard that. What I've usually here is let me tell the three times I got my ass handed to me and I'm never going to make that mistake again. So we're pain based learners. So if I'm experiencing pain bill in that process. If a listener is saying, hmm, I wonder if where I'm responsible in all of this. You know we talk about in the one of the big books about you know I can see the spec in your eye but I can't see the log in my own eye.

22:21 And in this 12 step program we've got this great saying that says if you spot it you got it. So one of the best ways that I know bill is to say, are you very how good are you at finding the fault in others. And most mediocre sales people people are in that middle to lower third. Are really good at telling me like when I'll go in and try to do an assessment of a sales force. I can tell you that fast. Who the ones are that are in the middle without even looking to the numbers is because I'll just ask one question and I'll say tell me about all the problems around here.

23:03 And they will talk for 20 minutes. And never once will they say it has anything to do with them. It's pricing it's underwriting. It's my boss. It's the quotas. It's the competition. It's the product design. It's the, you know, lack of sales support. The leads suck. You know you'll write down the list. So those are the best indicators that I have no bill which is when I'm starting to feel like every single reason for my lack of success.

23:37 Particularly if I've come off of a high where I've been before and I seem to be stuck at this new lower level. The more I'm suggesting that it's others the more likelihood is it's me. What do you hear from the from the top third? When you ask. They're always telling me. You know it's it's not different than what you probably experienced which is. You know how do I make lemon lemon lemonade out of lemons. You know they're always saying things like well.

24:05 You know our pricing is a little bit high but I can tell you here's how we differentiate ourselves. I don't talk about price. I talk about value. I really identify and match. I mean they very quickly go to the positives. And so when I'm interviewing sales people. You know I'm interviewing usually for two skills that not everybody interviews for. Because I assume I can teach you just about anything from a you know I can teach a dog to do a lot of things right I can teach a sales guy to do a lot of things sales person.

24:37 What I can't teach is positive attitude I can't teach positivity. And the second is is that I can't teach like ability. And I can't tell you the number of sales. And I can't tell you the number of sales that I've had. Where the person just showed up as unprepared as possible because they're going to just exude. Confidence and success. And I will oftentimes challenge them and say well what preparation did you do in advance of this.

25:07 Interview. And sometimes you know I've been known to be a jerk on this kind of thing but I've said you know what. What's more important you or the company you're going to work for. And if they're really honest they'll say well me. Okay so you're interviewing to sell yourself. You're the product. So you're never going to show up any better than you are for selling yourself. Because you're never going to show up that good to sell the product that I'm asking you to sell.

25:36 And you suck today showing up to sell yourself. Why would I believe you're ever going to show up any better to sell my product. And those are those blind spots that a lot of us have. So having a mentor having a coach like Professor Scott. Having a coach that can help unlock these blind spots which is what I needed. Bill I needed somebody to say Murray you're not as good as you're good. You're as good as you think you are.

26:06 And here are some blind spots that you've got when you're ready to hear them I'll work with you on them. Tim I'm guessing you've experienced some setbacks in life. And these setbacks what is your mantra. How do you overcome them or how do you deal with those failures or those losses or those just unfair circumstances that you know have caused a delay or loss in your life is. How do you get into somebody's mind and is there a mantra or belief that you kind of embraced during those times.

26:37 Well of course there is and I would say that there are two methods ones that I use that didn't work and one that I use now the do work. The ones that didn't work were to blame deflect wallow. Throw a pity party that nobody would show up for. And then eventually move out of that because you start to look around and realize you know what it's just me and I've got either decide to move forward or quit. The things that work for me and that I've seen I just model you know really good best practices in life Scott is nothing more than a monkey see monkey do program.

27:16 Find the people who behave the right way and think the right way and hang around them and behave the way they do and think the way they do. It's very simple might be hard but it's simple. And so for me personally is to remember that I'm simply not defined by my circumstances that my relationship with the universe God the Holy Spirit whatever it is you want to call that is not defined by whatever transactions are occurring.

27:44 You know think about my as good as I thought I was when I was staying at the four seasons as being a national superstar for a week or as I as much of a loser as I thought I was sitting in jail for my DWI. The answer is neither neither are true. Both are the two barbell ends of the ego, which is the great enemy. I'm not as good as I think I am on my good days I'm not as bad as I think I am as my bad days. So that's the first if I start there then I'm in a position of neutrality and then I can simply say all right what did I learn today.

28:20 And do I want to get better. I see a lot of guys in their 50s and 60s and you'll start to see this in your own peers guys as you walk around start watching at social events. The men how they stand will tell you where they're at on their their level of personal defeatism because the men that do this are done. I make sure that I walk in and out with a sales prospect because this is defeated. And if they don't do this if they're not standing like this looking like this that guy's done.

28:57 Now they could be 35 or they could be 65. But that tells me about everything I need to know about whether or not this person is going to be able to handle the adversity that is predictable in life. Tim I left to wrap it up but one question I ask all of our guests when we have them on the show is what is a book or person that's had the greatest impact on your life besides Colonel father. Is there somebody else or another book or a person.

29:28 Well, you know it's probably going to sound corny but I would say the big book of alcohol it's anonymous because what it allowed me to do is to see myself for the first time as others see me with my strengths with my weaknesses with my flaws. And it also gave me a roadmap and a set of solutions that I didn't think were available. The life without alcohol was possible. I thought I was going to be a boring, glum life and it's turned out to be the most extraordinary gift that I've ever been given.

30:02 But I didn't see that on this side of the veil. And so I would say that's definitely been the best book and the best experience and the men associated with that program have really been the most influence on my life. Now, you know every time we talk to him you always ask me what can I do for you or how can I serve you. And that's just always so gracious. How can we serve you tell us to kind of give us a two minute story about the Bravo Zulu house that you're working on and the one that you're building in in Mankato.

30:36 Yeah, well it won't even take two minutes because if you go to Bravo Zulu house got a large E and you can look at three different the three D's Scott and Bill the three D's to helping us are be a doer a donor or a door opener. A doer is maybe you've got time and talent you'd like to volunteer a donor you can write a check put in your card card obviously we need money. Probably the most influential is a door opener all of people who are supportive of veterans or people in recovery typically hang around with others who are supportive of veterans.

31:11 Simply introduce them to us. Send them emails send them a text say hey I've heard about this guy Tim Murray why don't you talk to him. So that's all I do. I simply meet with people. I ask questions and just like any good sales person I just follow the traction. And as a result the universe rewards activity and the money flows in. I've never asked for money we've raised 1.5 million for this last project the new project the women's sober house it would be the first all military women sober houses in the country for women veterans with PTSD and addiction.

31:47 I won't ask one person I'll just simply tell the story people ask me like you do Scott how can they help I give them the 3 D's I walk away I do it again wash rinse repeat and the money just falls down just like sales they just fall in. If you're doing the right thing and asking the right questions. We'll have a link to the Bravo Zulu house dot org and the show notes so. Well thanks so much Tim for being on the show is really great a lot of insightful things about how do we avoid those distractions as we wrap up today I've got a golden nugget from Betty Davis the film actors.

32:22 The key to life is accepting challenges. Once someone stops doing this he's dead. So true. Got to be in the game. So everything we talked about would be at winning at selling dot com look at the show notes and the information there. Next week the book club Eric Hawkins book great leaders make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. Chapter seven eight and nine. And our topic is selling to various buyer types. Please subscribe and share the podcast with your colleagues and on your social media.

32:54 If you're so inclined give us a five star review. This is episode 702. Go out and get better one skill at a time. Joyful selling.